Suggestion to improve Kushites

[Barcodes]

As we know, Kushites are one of the least used civs, if not the least used, but they have the large pyramid available to increase unit damage, hack and pierce resistance. I was thinking instead of the large pyramid having 70 meters range, I think it should be either unlimited range, but arguably that could be too OP or, alternatively, increasing the range so it's within territory of your base. This way it will not be disadvantaged compared to other civs such as Mauryas or Persians, to whom have 220 pop limit to compensate.

 

[0 calories]

so far it is most played civ by me  

maybe if they could place large pyramid anywhere they want... and not capturable just destoryed by rams..

[Seleucids]

1 hour ago, Barcodes said:

large pyramid having 70 meters range, I think it should be either unlimited range,

I like this idea. The Kushite buildings occupy too much of their aura themselves so that their aura is quite limited. I recommend increase the aura range of large pyramid to maybe 140m and large temple to 60m to decrease the buildings' obstruction. 

[Emacz]

10 minutes ago, Seleucids said:

I like this idea. The Kushite buildings occupy too much of their aura themselves so that their aura is quite limited. I recommend increase the aura range of large pyramid to maybe 140m and large temple to 60m to decrease the buildings' obstruction. 

making that change on historical, its intersting idea, and i like it!

[Barcodes]

1 hour ago, 0 calories said:

so far it is most played civ by me  

maybe if they could place large pyramid anywhere they want... and not capturable just destoryed by rams..

yeahhh, either way, any decent player who sees the pyramid will just avoid it and i'm pretty sure all your units can't be on the pyramid if you have a 100+ army so it's quite pointless really and it's not cheap either

[Arup]

Buff archers and kush will be good again

[Seleucids]

6 hours ago, Arup said:

Buff archers and kush will be good again

We don't want A24 to return though 

 

220 pop for kushites might be too OP, because they have mercs to save themselves. The other 220 pop civs all have fatal flaws that make this necessary. 

 

Another idea is to give Kushites a 5% pop bonus, so they become 210 pop limit in a 200 pop game.

[Seleucids]

Regarding @Barcodes proposal on pyramids, I've tested some values and I've made a pull request with the following changes:

1. Temple of Amun's healing range increases from 40m to 70m. This is because the building itself occupies most of the area within its aura, so there is not much space left for the units to be healed, espcially on the corners. Increasing to 70m gives ample space for units to stand nearby and heal. 

2. Large Pyramid aura range increased to 100m. This radius is approximately the width of a late game army (120~130) units in close order formation. The previous 70m is too small to affect the whole army, especially considering the size of the pyramid itself and the likelihood of buildings / complicated landform around it. 100m should give sufficient space for the aura to have a strategic impact. However, 140m or greater values might be too OP, so let's be conservative here. The idea of the circular aura is being able to use this building to give you an advantage while invading an enemy bordering you; you are covered by the aura even when you are inside enemy territory. Similarly, it provides you with an advantage at defending against incoming attacks, which is what Kushites are weak at. 

 https://gitea.wildfiregames.com/0ad/0ad/pulls/7963

[Emacz]

12 hours ago, Arup said:

Buff archers and kush will be good again

Historical reduces their pierce dmg, but gives them poison dmg which bypasses resistances

[Stan`]

What are the grounds for poison damage ?

[Emacz]

7 hours ago, Stan` said:

What are the grounds for poison damage ?

what do you mean? like why did we add it? or how do we use it with kush?

[Arup]

2 hours ago, Emacz said:

what do you mean? like why did we add it? or how do we use it with kush?

yes, he's asking abt the historical context

[Barcodes]

17 hours ago, Seleucids said:

Regarding @Barcodes proposal on pyramids, I've tested some values and I've made a pull request with the following changes:

1. Temple of Amun's healing range increases from 40m to 70m. This is because the building itself occupies most of the area within its aura, so there is not much space left for the units to be healed, espcially on the corners. Increasing to 70m gives ample space for units to stand nearby and heal. 

2. Large Pyramid aura range increased to 100m. This radius is approximately the width of a late game army (120~130) units in close order formation. The previous 70m is too small to affect the whole army, especially considering the size of the pyramid itself and the likelihood of buildings / complicated landform around it. 100m should give sufficient space for the aura to have a strategic impact. However, 140m or greater values might be too OP, so let's be conservative here. The idea of the circular aura is being able to use this building to give you an advantage while invading an enemy bordering you; you are covered by the aura even when you are inside enemy territory. Similarly, it provides you with an advantage at defending against incoming attacks, which is what Kushites are weak at. 

 https://gitea.wildfiregames.com/0ad/0ad/pulls/7963

Excellent improvement, also maybe consider the Iberian revered monument, that is only 50 meters as well. 

[Barcodes]

18 hours ago, Seleucids said:

We don't want A24 to return though 

 

220 pop for kushites might be too OP, because they have mercs to save themselves. The other 220 pop civs all have fatal flaws that make this necessary. 

 

Another idea is to give Kushites a 5% pop bonus, so they become 210 pop limit in a 200 pop game.

All archer civs should have 220 pop due to their disadvantage if played with regular infantry, particularly carthaginians as they're very limited, no champ infantry and only champ cav through temples.

[Arup]

1 hour ago, Barcodes said:

no champ infantry

sacred bahl infantry left the chat

[Barcodes]

10 minutes ago, Arup said:

sacred bahl infantry left the chat

oh yeah forgot about them, still tho only in temples

[Stan`]

2 hours ago, Arup said:

yes, he's asking abt the historical context

^

[Emacz]

9 hours ago, Barcodes said:

All archer civs should have 220 pop due to their disadvantage if played with regular infantry, particularly carthaginians as they're very limited, no champ infantry and only champ cav through temples.

they have champ infantry spearman....

[Emacz]

7 hours ago, Stan` said:

^

pretty sure it game from this very extensive post on the forums, its where we got most of our kush info.  But I'll have to double check and see if it came from somewhere else.

 

[Dakara]

We could imagine that the pyramid would apply to the entire player's territory? But in same way, it might be necessary to nerf his stats because it could be very OP in defense. 

It situational and okay. 

---

There are plenty of civilizations that have population bonuses. We still don't know why Hans have this bonus pop. Persians it was because they are so bad some years ago, but now they are definitely good, we can think to delete them the bonus pop. Séleucide don't have! This would make this population bonus a little more unique if only maurya have it!

Carthage already has champions, only they must be made in the temple, it just takes longer to do in part but nothing impossible. If you have a Maurya in your team your temples are less expensive...ok it's a bit far-fetched

----

About the fish, let's keep that for the Maurya archer champions. It also makes them unique.

[Seleucids]

22 minutes ago, Dakara said:

We still don't know why Hans have this bonus pop.

They would be weak otherwise. They really lack damage output: no Javs and no slings. If you calculate dmg per second, the crossbows are just not enough. They don't even have jav Cav and their champions have to be made from the expensive building. They don't even have mercs to save themselves if things go wrong. 

25 minutes ago, Dakara said:

we can think to delete them the bonus pop

No. They are not as good as you think, due to relatively worse eco weaker spearman (pathfinder issue). Persians are just right at the moment. 

28 minutes ago, Dakara said:

maurya have it!

Mauryas is truly weak unless you spam elephants. They also need 10% pop. We can just let The other civs have more or less pop bonus. Not 10%, but like 5% or 2%

[Emacz]

37 minutes ago, Seleucids said:

They would be weak otherwise. They really lack damage output: no Javs and no slings. If you calculate dmg per second, the crossbows are just not enough. They don't even have jav Cav and their champions have to be made from the expensive building. They don't even have mercs to save themselves if things go wrong. 

No. They are not as good as you think, due to relatively worse eco weaker spearman (pathfinder issue). Persians are just right at the moment. 

Mauryas is truly weak unless you spam elephants. They also need 10% pop. We can just let The other civs have more or less pop bonus. Not 10%, but like 5% or 2%

Isnt the pop bonus based off historical information regarding the size of empires...... (Rome should have one but would be too OP)

Maury spam eles, OP swordsman as well.  But then again im mostly thinking about historical and how every civ is somewhat OP  but there are still a few that need work or are too OP

[Emacz]

9 hours ago, Stan` said:

^

Many of its warriors still used bronze weapons, some perhaps imported from Egypt, and although swords appear in Meroitic art none have yet been found. Spears and bows were the preferred weapons, while Meroe’s archers used leather quivers, plus iron- and even stone-tipped arrows of wood or cane, often poisoned.

There is A LOT Of great infomration out there if you are willing to read through it and find the most accurate ones.  Thats one reason we lean on @Genava55 and @Thorfinn the Shallow Minded for our articles and ideas with Historical.

[Barcodes]

2 hours ago, Dakara said:

We could imagine that the pyramid would apply to the entire player's territory? But in same way, it might be necessary to nerf his stats because it could be very OP in defense. 

It situational and okay. 

---

There are plenty of civilizations that have population bonuses. We still don't know why Hans have this bonus pop. Persians it was because they are so bad some years ago, but now they are definitely good, we can think to delete them the bonus pop. Séleucide don't have! This would make this population bonus a little more unique if only maurya have it!

Carthage already has champions, only they must be made in the temple, it just takes longer to do in part but nothing impossible. If you have a Maurya in your team your temples are less expensive...ok it's a bit far-fetched

----

About the fish, let's keep that for the Maurya archer champions. It also makes them unique.

i mean the whole point of your base is to defend it as much as possible, if the radius applied anywhere then yeah that would be OP but since it would only be within territory that would be fine

[Genava55]

22 hours ago, Stan` said:

What are the grounds for poison damage ?

https://www.persee.fr/doc/paleo_0153-9345_1974_num_2_2_1057