Suggestion to improve Kushites

[Barcodes]

As we know, Kushites are one of the least used civs, if not the least used, but they have the large pyramid available to increase unit damage, hack and pierce resistance. I was thinking instead of the large pyramid having 70 meters range, I think it should be either unlimited range, but arguably that could be too OP or, alternatively, increasing the range so it's within territory of your base. This way it will not be disadvantaged compared to other civs such as Mauryas or Persians, to whom have 220 pop limit to compensate.

 

[0 calories]

so far it is most played civ by me  

maybe if they could place large pyramid anywhere they want... and not capturable just destoryed by rams..

[Seleucids]

1 hour ago, Barcodes said:

large pyramid having 70 meters range, I think it should be either unlimited range,

I like this idea. The Kushite buildings occupy too much of their aura themselves so that their aura is quite limited. I recommend increase the aura range of large pyramid to maybe 140m and large temple to 60m to decrease the buildings' obstruction. 

[Barcodes]

1 hour ago, 0 calories said:

so far it is most played civ by me  

maybe if they could place large pyramid anywhere they want... and not capturable just destoryed by rams..

yeahhh, either way, any decent player who sees the pyramid will just avoid it and i'm pretty sure all your units can't be on the pyramid if you have a 100+ army so it's quite pointless really and it's not cheap either

[Arup]

Buff archers and kush will be good again

[Seleucids]

6 hours ago, Arup said:

Buff archers and kush will be good again

We don't want A24 to return though 

 

220 pop for kushites might be too OP, because they have mercs to save themselves. The other 220 pop civs all have fatal flaws that make this necessary. 

 

Another idea is to give Kushites a 5% pop bonus, so they become 210 pop limit in a 200 pop game.

[Seleucids]

Regarding @Barcodes proposal on pyramids, I've tested some values and I've made a pull request with the following changes:

1. Temple of Amun's healing range increases from 40m to 70m. This is because the building itself occupies most of the area within its aura, so there is not much space left for the units to be healed, espcially on the corners. Increasing to 70m gives ample space for units to stand nearby and heal. 

2. Large Pyramid aura range increased to 100m. This radius is approximately the width of a late game army (120~130) units in close order formation. The previous 70m is too small to affect the whole army, especially considering the size of the pyramid itself and the likelihood of buildings / complicated landform around it. 100m should give sufficient space for the aura to have a strategic impact. However, 140m or greater values might be too OP, so let's be conservative here. The idea of the circular aura is being able to use this building to give you an advantage while invading an enemy bordering you; you are covered by the aura even when you are inside enemy territory. Similarly, it provides you with an advantage at defending against incoming attacks, which is what Kushites are weak at. 

 https://gitea.wildfiregames.com/0ad/0ad/pulls/7963

[Stan`]

What are the grounds for poison damage ?

[Arup]

2 hours ago, Emacz said:

what do you mean? like why did we add it? or how do we use it with kush?

yes, he's asking abt the historical context

[Barcodes]

17 hours ago, Seleucids said:

Regarding @Barcodes proposal on pyramids, I've tested some values and I've made a pull request with the following changes:

1. Temple of Amun's healing range increases from 40m to 70m. This is because the building itself occupies most of the area within its aura, so there is not much space left for the units to be healed, espcially on the corners. Increasing to 70m gives ample space for units to stand nearby and heal. 

2. Large Pyramid aura range increased to 100m. This radius is approximately the width of a late game army (120~130) units in close order formation. The previous 70m is too small to affect the whole army, especially considering the size of the pyramid itself and the likelihood of buildings / complicated landform around it. 100m should give sufficient space for the aura to have a strategic impact. However, 140m or greater values might be too OP, so let's be conservative here. The idea of the circular aura is being able to use this building to give you an advantage while invading an enemy bordering you; you are covered by the aura even when you are inside enemy territory. Similarly, it provides you with an advantage at defending against incoming attacks, which is what Kushites are weak at. 

 https://gitea.wildfiregames.com/0ad/0ad/pulls/7963

Excellent improvement, also maybe consider the Iberian revered monument, that is only 50 meters as well. 

[Barcodes]

18 hours ago, Seleucids said:

We don't want A24 to return though 

 

220 pop for kushites might be too OP, because they have mercs to save themselves. The other 220 pop civs all have fatal flaws that make this necessary. 

 

Another idea is to give Kushites a 5% pop bonus, so they become 210 pop limit in a 200 pop game.

All archer civs should have 220 pop due to their disadvantage if played with regular infantry, particularly carthaginians as they're very limited, no champ infantry and only champ cav through temples.

[Arup]

1 hour ago, Barcodes said:

no champ infantry

sacred bahl infantry left the chat

[Barcodes]

10 minutes ago, Arup said:

sacred bahl infantry left the chat

oh yeah forgot about them, still tho only in temples

[Stan`]

2 hours ago, Arup said:

yes, he's asking abt the historical context

^

[Dakara]

We could imagine that the pyramid would apply to the entire player's territory? But in same way, it might be necessary to nerf his stats because it could be very OP in defense. 

It situational and okay. 

---

There are plenty of civilizations that have population bonuses. We still don't know why Hans have this bonus pop. Persians it was because they are so bad some years ago, but now they are definitely good, we can think to delete them the bonus pop. Séleucide don't have! This would make this population bonus a little more unique if only maurya have it!

Carthage already has champions, only they must be made in the temple, it just takes longer to do in part but nothing impossible. If you have a Maurya in your team your temples are less expensive...ok it's a bit far-fetched

----

About the fish, let's keep that for the Maurya archer champions. It also makes them unique.

[Seleucids]

22 minutes ago, Dakara said:

We still don't know why Hans have this bonus pop.

They would be weak otherwise. They really lack damage output: no Javs and no slings. If you calculate dmg per second, the crossbows are just not enough. They don't even have jav Cav and their champions have to be made from the expensive building. They don't even have mercs to save themselves if things go wrong. 

25 minutes ago, Dakara said:

we can think to delete them the bonus pop

No. They are not as good as you think, due to relatively worse eco weaker spearman (pathfinder issue). Persians are just right at the moment. 

28 minutes ago, Dakara said:

maurya have it!

Mauryas is truly weak unless you spam elephants. They also need 10% pop. We can just let The other civs have more or less pop bonus. Not 10%, but like 5% or 2%

[Barcodes]

2 hours ago, Dakara said:

We could imagine that the pyramid would apply to the entire player's territory? But in same way, it might be necessary to nerf his stats because it could be very OP in defense. 

It situational and okay. 

---

There are plenty of civilizations that have population bonuses. We still don't know why Hans have this bonus pop. Persians it was because they are so bad some years ago, but now they are definitely good, we can think to delete them the bonus pop. Séleucide don't have! This would make this population bonus a little more unique if only maurya have it!

Carthage already has champions, only they must be made in the temple, it just takes longer to do in part but nothing impossible. If you have a Maurya in your team your temples are less expensive...ok it's a bit far-fetched

----

About the fish, let's keep that for the Maurya archer champions. It also makes them unique.

i mean the whole point of your base is to defend it as much as possible, if the radius applied anywhere then yeah that would be OP but since it would only be within territory that would be fine

[Genava55]

22 hours ago, Stan` said:

What are the grounds for poison damage ?

https://www.persee.fr/doc/paleo_0153-9345_1974_num_2_2_1057

[Dakara]

On 23/05/2025 at 6:12 PM, Barcodes said:

i mean the whole point of your base is to defend it as much as possible, if the radius applied anywhere then yeah that would be OP but since it would only be within territory that would be fine

Yes that nice idea. The range is annoying to check for use at this moment

and the new range for big temple seems good. the 40 meters was a joke du to the circle 

[Dakara]

On 23/05/2025 at 4:34 PM, Seleucids said:

 

Mauryas is truly weak unless you spam elephants. They also need 10% pop. We can just let The other civs have more or less pop bonus. Not 10%, but like 5% or 2%

If we change the 3th heroe of Maurya and we imagine some little change maybe we can remove the 10% POP. For example :

-Maurya can build the building for train heroe in P2. in that way they have a better boom with discount tech and time reseach. Or they can use the other heroes for other strategy.

-The 3th heroe we give something related to armor or attack damage. But the unit is still on foot for increase the infantery army option.  +2 armor infantery or 20% attack damage in circle for infantery.

They do not depend on stone.(bad on some map but good in basic map, focus more on wood tech)

The place keep the territory, that unique. And the worker elefant too. Btw the food collect rate for cav is too op, we should nerf it a lot. 5x is incredible. We should have X2 for all units. No reason a cav collect faster, the unit is already faster.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

On 23/5/2025 at 7:34 AM, Seleucids said:

. If you calculate dmg per second, the crossbows are just not enough.

Crossbows have higher dps than slingers. The problem with xbows is overkill.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Well near term a solution could be to reduce repeat time and damage or instead decrease accuracy and increase damage.

long term, I have a PR to decrease overkill in the innate unit behavior but it’s got some issues related to OOS right now.

theres also the box targeting thing but I’m not sure how I feel about introducing a new mechanic just to combat overkill.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Meant to say repeat time, not fire rate, fixed it.

[chrstgtr]

9 hours ago, Emacz said:

come back to historcal and suggest these thigns

[Dakara]

21 hours ago, Emacz said:

overkill? meaning too many shoot the same target and do more dmg than needed insted of spreading it out?

How could that be fixed?

we should't fix it, it is like that ahah