tool or factor influences game wins

[seeh]

Creating a definitive table with estimated percentages of how much each tool or factor influences game wins is challenging because it can vary greatly depending on the specific game, player skill, and other factors.

but first FAQ (what this post is and not is):

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

entire thread was designed to bolster the p.... mod

no its not. its for give some different points of view and maybe better discussions and decisions later and understanding each other.

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The chart isn't scientific in the least

thats true. as said often also in the thread first posting.

 

However, I want provide some examples to illustrate the potential impact of certain tools or factors:

Monitors: Having a larger monitor or multiple monitors can enhance visibility and provide a better gaming experience. This can potentially improve reaction time and awareness of in-game events, giving a slight advantage. Estimated influence: around 5-10% improvement in performance.

Good lighting: Adequate lighting conditions can reduce eye strain and improve focus, leading to better concentration during gameplay. While it may not directly affect gameplay mechanics, it can contribute to overall player comfort and performance. Estimated influence: around 2-5% improvement in performance.

Good chair and ergonomics: Comfortable seating and proper ergonomics can help reduce physical discomfort and fatigue during long gaming sessions. This can indirectly contribute to better focus and prolonged gameplay. Estimated influence: around 2-5% improvement in performance.

Strong PC: A powerful gaming PC can provide smoother gameplay, faster loading times, and better graphics quality. This can enhance the overall gaming experience and potentially give a slight advantage in terms of responsiveness and performance. Estimated influence: around 5-10% improvement in performance.

Spectator: Tips and reminders from while watching the game from somebody (from same room or from somewhere else),
can vary depending on the individual player and their ability to multitask and process information.
While the exact percentage may depend on individual factors and preferences, considering a range of -3 to 10% provides a general understanding of the potential influence that tips and reminders from a spectator can have on a player's performance in the game.

It's important to note that these percentages are rough estimates and can vary depending on individual skill levels, game mechanics, and other factors. The impact of these tools or factors is also subjective and may differ from person to person. Ultimately, the skill and strategy of the player remain the most significant factors in determining game wins.
 

mods

AutoCiv Mod (with OP hotkey configuration): The AutoCiv mod, with its powerful hotkey configuration, can provide players with a significant advantage in terms of efficiency and speed in executing in-game actions. This can streamline gameplay and give players an edge in terms of productivity and decision-making. Estimated influence: around 2-8% improvement in performance.
It's worth noting that the estimated influence percentages are subjective and can vary depending on the specific game, player skill, and other factors. The impact of the AutoCiv mod's hotkey configuration can be significant, but the exact influence may depend on the player's familiarity with the mod and their ability to effectively utilize the enhanced hotkeys.

boonGUI (with larger map overview): The boonGUI tool, with its zoom configuration, can provide players with a larger map overview, allowing for better strategic planning and decision-making. This expanded view can give players an advantage in terms of situational awareness and map control. Estimated influence: around 1-3% improvement in performance.
Again, it's important to note that the estimated influence percentages are subjective and can vary depending on the specific game, player skill, and other factors. The impact of the boonGUI tool's larger map overview can be significant, but the exact influence may depend on the player's ability to effectively utilize the expanded view and make strategic decisions based on the additional information.

proGUI (with autoproduction resart): can prevent players from forgetting to restart production and ensure a more consistent and efficient resource management. The autoproduction feature can give players an advantage in terms of maintaining a steady flow of resources and units. Estimated influence: around -3 to +15% improvement in performance.
Again, please note that the estimated influence percentages are subjective and can vary depending on the specific game, player skill, and other factors. The impact of the proGUI tool's autoproduction feature can be significant, but the exact influence may depend on the player's ability to effectively manage their resources and make strategic decisions based on the automated production.

AbstractGUI (with object simplification): The Abstract Shapes tool can simplify complex objects in the game, such as trees, and replace them with abstract shapes. This can improve visibility and allow players to better see through obstacles or cluttered environments, giving them an advantage in terms of situational awareness and strategic planning. Estimated influence: around 1-5% improvement in performance.
Again, please note that the estimated influence percentages are subjective and can vary depending on the specific game, player skill, and other factors. The impact of the Abstract Shapes tool's object simplification feature can be significant, but the exact influence may depend on the player's ability to effectively utilize the improved visibility and make strategic decisions based on the simplified objects.

this is not a complete collection.

 

 

On 06/09/2023 at 7:52 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

We don't have any control over what monitors people use, but we can control what mods are available and what those do.

 

On 06/09/2023 at 12:56 AM, Gurken Khan said:

I would be in favor of total transparency

 

BTW

Innovation in any field, including gaming, often starts with individuals exploring new ideas and approaches. It's not uncommon for these ideas to be initially met with skepticism or resistance, as they may be perceived as cheating or unfair advantages. However, over time, some of these innovations may become accepted as standard practices if they are proven to enhance the overall gameplay experience and maintain a level playing field.

Transparency and availability to all players is indeed an important aspect to consider when evaluating the acceptability of certain tools or techniques. If an innovation provides a significant advantage but is only accessible to a select few, it can create an imbalance and negatively impact the fairness of the game. In such cases, game developers and communities often strive to ensure that innovations are accessible to all players, either by integrating them into the game or by providing guidelines for their use.

It's worth noting that striking the right balance between innovation and fairness can be challenging. Game developers and communities continuously evolve their rules and guidelines to adapt to new innovations and maintain a healthy and enjoyable gaming environment for all players.

hf bb cu

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by seeh

[alre]

I would estimate influenece of progui to be 1-15%. If used well it can help any player, I believe, but pro players will benefit less from it, also it can hinder you if you don't use it well. super noobs on the other hand will their eco improve greatly no matter what.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

The main unfair advantage progui provides is reducing the necessary tasks of eco management and training. This means that a progui player can focus much more on overloading the multitasking ability of a player who has to actually manage their training and eco. I think the percent numerical advantage from progui mostly grows when you exploit it this way. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

5 hours ago, seeh said:

enhance the overall gameplay experience

ProGUI inherently degrades the gameplay experience because it removes part of the game from the user experience. The economy is managed 'above' 0ad so you don't actually play the economy part of the game other than build buildings.

5 hours ago, seeh said:

maintain a level playing field.

I am not saying you are here, but going forward, lets not confuse a skill gap and level playing field.

In a 1v1, if both players take the same civ (and let computer specs be basically the same), it is a level playing field. If both have proGUI it is also a level playing field. If I go up against @ValihrAnt this is also a level playing field.

If a player beats another because they are better at 0ad, this is not unfair. Automation to the degree of progui decreases the skill gap aka decreases the amount of learnable skills it takes to be better than someone else. Decreasing the skill gap generally makes for less enjoyable gameplay.

Edited September 5, 2023 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Gurken Khan]

I don't know how feasible it is, but I would be in favor of total transparency when not using standard 0ad code. Some mods show up visibly but as I understand it's also possible to hide all kinds of cheats; I don't think that's good.

[Atrik]

2 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

ProGUI inherently degrades the gameplay experience because it removes part of the game from the user experience. The economy is managed 'above' 0ad so you don't actually play the economy part of the game other than build buildings.

You think only by making assumptions, there are a lot more then building production to the 0ad economy management, and even for this part, similar skills are required in order to achieve results.

3 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Automation to the degree of progui decreases the skill gap aka decreases the amount of learnable skills it takes to be better than someone else. Decreasing the skill gap generally makes for less enjoyable gameplay.

Well, the skill gap is untouched. I know some players using progui that boom faster then me (or generally stronger eco), and some that boom slower (or generally weaker eco).
I think the mood of a player influence his performance more the usage or not of progui.

Interfaces are supposed to translate user will into actions, so for the production part, if you like how progui translates your input into actions, then it increase game experience. User Experience (UI/ UX)is the field of trying increase usability, generally by reducing clicks requited to achieve user will.

I was already good at booming before using progui, most pro players using it would tell you progui trainer actually slow them down a bit, at least for the time they aren't use to manage it actively very well. So now when you say "ProGUI inherently degrades the gameplay experience", who does it apply to? It's own users? It seems unlikely anybody would have picked it up, notice no improvements, and suddenly pretend to still like it and to start using it.
It's true that the trainer could help you optimize production theoretically, in practice, a 0ad game has enough variables to make it insignificant. Getting housed for 15+ sec is very common even in pro games. And impact your eco more then the 0.5 sec gained by using the trainer. It's a small enough unfair advantage.

However in general because of the growing divides that this mod seems to create into a already small community, I'm thinking about terminating the project. Some people are getting harassed for using this mod it's simply ridiculous.
If seemingly reasonable people like you or @wowgetoffyourcellphone deem it just a cheat comparable to real cheats then I'll do it. I'll know forever that you guys probably just had stupid biases to think the interface exactly as it was in a unrelated game from last century.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

I think a GUI mod should just change how things look or the information that is displayed. Progui has macros that make the game easier to play. If some players have progui, it’s an unfair advantage. If everyone has progui and is accustomed to it, then we lose the production management part of 0ad and its corresponding learnable skills, resulting in a decrease in the fun of the game. Fun games are when you can’t master everything and there’s always some way to improve that rewards you with a win. If you replace a skill based facet of the game with an optimized automatic system, then there is no way to improve in that gameplay area, so it’s less fun.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

It's not so much the faster boom that wins games at the higher level. Its the fact that you need to give much, much less attention to your economy. I haven't seen you do this yet, but the best player I have seen using this mod will just do a full p2 cavalry attack with 100% attention to micro while their economy is growing on its own.

RTS games have an important factor of multitasking. Where the player divides their attention is extremely important, and the ability to multitask is difficult and only improved by practice. The degree to which proGUI automates the eco loses part of this important aspect of the game.

1 hour ago, Atrik said:

User Experience (UI/ UX)is the field of trying increase usability, generally by reducing clicks requited to achieve user will.

No, user experience is just the user's enjoyment of a product. And making things easier does not always make them better.

1 hour ago, Atrik said:

So now when you say "ProGUI inherently degrades the gameplay experience", who does it apply to? It's own users? It seems unlikely anybody would have picked it up, notice no improvements, and suddenly pretend to still like it and to start using it.

I think players are just enjoying it because it is making it easier for them to win against people without the mod. I really doubt players would have fun if this was standard for everyone, since everyone could execute perfect booms and then balance would come down to civs and micro. The reason I say that is because with this optimization, you are removing part of the game. Sure its not a glamorous or particularly exciting part of the game, but it is an important one and one you have to learn.

1 hour ago, Atrik said:

You think only by making assumptions

No I don't. Thats not very nice.

1 hour ago, Atrik said:

If seemingly reasonable people like you or @wowgetoffyourcellphone deem it just a cheat comparable to real cheats then I'll do it.

Yeah I would say players that use the automatic features of the mod are cheating, but I also think its just an experiment that didn't really work out and that your efforts would be better put elsewhere.

Edited September 6, 2023 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Atrik]

8 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

could execute perfect booms and then balance would come down to civs and micro

26 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

If you replace a skill based facet of the game with an optimized automatic system, then there is no way to improve in that gameplay area, so it’s less fun

All assumptions from your mind ignoring the facts that we have enough games played with players using the mod, that end up with various strategy, boom speed, eco strength to see that what you fear is the fruit of your imagination alone. You guys simply extend the actual features making some action less clicky with a fantasized AI playing for you.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

If 1 player is using ProGUi with its macros and the other player isn't, then it's cheating/unlevel playing field. Now, if you are suggesting the base game's GUI should be changed to match ProGUi, that's another thing altogether. But no, you release it with compatibility checks turned off so some people can use it against others who don't have the mod. It doesn't matter if it's a 25% buff or 5% buff. It's a mod that automates things for some players over other players. It's a cheat mod. We don't have any control over what monitors people use, but we can control what mods are available and what those do.

/if
"ignoreInCompatibilityChecks": false

/then this would be a whole different discussion. Agreed? 

Edited September 6, 2023 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Atrik]

40 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

But no, you release it with compatibility checks turned off so some people can use it against others who don't have the mod. It doesn't matter if it's a 25% buff or 5% buff. It's a mod that automates things for some players over other players. It's a cheat mod.

Probably, you just don't like it. Yet to be witnessed a player hiding he's using progui I guess. Maybe the name of the game is to pretend 0ad online games are very serious matter or to call cheaters peoples you don't like losing against idk, I don't understand these reactions.

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Now, if you are suggesting the base game's GUI should be changed to match ProGUi

If some people find it useful and some don't, why not make a mod and see if some of the features stands out to be worth to adapt in the main game? I guess it's great if it's tested out on some games. If you maintain it provides such a unfair advantage you cannot stand it, then ban the mod from your games, real cheaters hide game modifications anyway, and enforcing the check with a bool is simply a joke.

[seeh]

8 hours ago, Gurken Khan said:

as I understand it's also possible to hide all kinds of cheats

thats true. To prevent cheating, you would need to remove JavaScript completely on the client side. This would require creating a new game without any client-side scripting.  recognizing the effort and hard work that goes into creating mods, even if they are considered cheating by some. By acknowledging the dedication and creativity of mod creators, we can encourage a positive and respectful dialogue that motivates them to continue programming and contributing to the community.

[seeh]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

/if
"ignoreInCompatibilityChecks": false

/then this would be a whole different discussion. Agreed? 

Yes, using a mod like ProGUi when the other player doesn't have it can be considered cheating because it creates an unfair advantage. Releasing a mod without compatibility checks, where "ignoreInCompatibilityChecks" is set to false (like e.g. autoCiv also), allows some players to automate actions that others can't. This can give them an unfair advantage.

However, it's important to prioritize transparency in these situations. When players know what tools or mods others are using, they can make informed decisions.

It's also worth noting that if a modder enables the option "ignoreInCompatibilityChecks": false, they may struggle to find opponents to play with, especially if it's a new mod. This can limit the availability of fair matches and impact the modder's ability to find suitable gameplay opportunities.

Finding a balance between fair competition and allowing for the creativity and enjoyment that mods bring is crucial. By encouraging transparency and open communication within the community, we can create an environment where players can make their own choices while still maintaining fairness in the game.

BTW @wowgetoffyourcellphone i send you a private Message for a day . didn't you see it?

Edited September 6, 2023 by seeh

[0 calories]

It seems some people are detached from continuous game development and considering new features as cheats because it trully enhance gameplay and equalize some parts - look to  0ad vision 

Please focus on important things:

- 1) secure communication
- 2) revealed map cheating
- 3) start hosting wfg games (to provide achieve some goals above)
- 4) allow only specific mods 
- 5) allow players to send private messages(even limited lines per minute to avoid spamming to enable password proteced games)
- 6) reading enemy stats

Now we can discuss thousands days why "it is not possible"...  feel free to join 0ad devs team instead to make it possible

I recommend stop attacking Atrik for what his great game updates and I would try focus on "getting" great pieace of code and enhance 0ad itself... And if this is not "possible" let modders make mods and let them be passionate and helpfull. 

 

You can still use your horse and compete to cars, it is your decision. Still both are on the market and available.

Edited September 6, 2023 by 0 calories

[seeh]

9 hours ago, Atrik said:

However in general because of the growing divides that this mod seems to create into a already small community, I'm thinking about terminating the project. Some people are getting harassed for using this mod it's simply ridiculous.
If seemingly reasonable people like you or @wowgetoffyourcellphone deem it just a cheat comparable to real cheats then I'll do it. I'll know forever that you guys probably just had stupid biases to think the interface exactly as it was in a unrelated game from last century.

In my opinion, it's unfair to equate the mod to cheats because they are fundamentally motivated. I believe the mod is designed to enhance the game-play experience, while cheats are intended to give unfair advantages.

I suggest implementing features that clearly indicate when the mod is active. This could include visual indicators or notifications that let others know when someone is using the mod. By doing so, we can ensure that everyone is aware and there are no misunderstandings.

I believe having open discussions and finding common ground is important for our community. Let's work together to address any issues, alleviate concerns, and create an environment where everyone can enjoy the game

Edited September 6, 2023 by seeh

[real_tabasco_sauce]

2 hours ago, seeh said:

In my opinion, it's unfair to equate the mod to cheats because they are fundamentally motivated. I believe the mod is designed to enhance the game-play experience, while cheats are intended to give unfair advantages.

The GUI part is for sure. And I am sure @Atrik's intentions were not to create cheats. But the intention does not matter here, since the end product includes cheats.

7 hours ago, 0 calories said:

It seems some people are detached from continuous game development and considering new features as cheats because it trully enhance gameplay and equalize some parts - look to  0ad vision 

There is lots of good game development going on, but this is not it. What this does is effectively remove a large part of the game. I wound not consider it a new feature. It doesn't enhance gameplay and it doesn't equalize parts since the players are already on a level playing field.

[alre]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

There is lots of good game development going on, but this is not it. What this does is effectively remove a large part of the game. I wound not consider it a new feature. It doesn't enhance gameplay and it doesn't equalize parts since the players are already on a level playing field.

it does not. have you tried playing with the mod? becasuse you really seem to be talking only on the base of assumptions.

18 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Automation to the degree of progui decreases the skill gap aka decreases the amount of learnable skills it takes to be better than someone else. Decreasing the skill gap generally makes for less enjoyable gameplay.

games get updates that decrease the skill gap all the time. some say it's bad, some say it's good. it depends on the change and in this case I like the change, and it's not because it gives me the edge over other players (it does not).

BTW,  I know everybody loves autociv, but autociv's active pause should also be banned if progui is. whenever the game is paused it gives a concrete advantage to those players that have it.

[seeh]

On 06/09/2023 at 9:50 AM, 0 calories said:

- 1) secure communication

not the most important thing for me. Yes, I know that I'm in a game and exchange private things and bank data differently.

idk. may we could use something ? https://github.com/vector-im/hydrogen-web

On 06/09/2023 at 9:50 AM, 0 calories said:

- 2) revealed map cheating

idk what this means.

On 06/09/2023 at 9:50 AM, 0 calories said:

- 3) start hosting wfg games (to provide achieve some goals above)

not the most important thing for me either. maybe I've gotten used to it. I recommend using tools such as https://syncthing.net/

On 06/09/2023 at 9:50 AM, 0 calories said:

- 4) allow only specific mods 

that doesn't sound good to me at all. maybe it depends on the detail and how specifically you mean that. Well, for me that's what's special about 0ad that I found mods there, which is why I play ad at all. where I can program myself. but maybe the details matter a lot.
If autociv hadn't existed, I wouldn't have switched from MegaGlest to 0ad. i was looking for something where i 1) can use the keyboard 2) can be creative (not only during the game) and that fits to being a developer
 

On 06/09/2023 at 9:50 AM, 0 calories said:

- 5) allow players to send private messages(even limited lines per minute to avoid spamming to enable password proteced games)

ok . limited per minute. hmm. idk. maybe a good idea was not my problem aready but why not.

On 06/09/2023 at 9:50 AM, 0 calories said:

- 6) reading enemy stats

you mean probably hinder to read enemy stats. yes good idea, i dont think it happens often. for me its sound not a big problem at the moment. maybe i wrong/blind for it.

On 06/09/2023 at 9:50 AM, 0 calories said:

I recommend stop attacking Atrik for what his great game updates and I would try focus on "getting" great pieace of code and enhance 0ad itself... And if this is not "possible" let modders make mods and let them be passionate and helpfull. 

sound friendly <3

  

On 06/09/2023 at 9:50 AM, 0 calories said:

look to  0ad vision 

interesting nice texts

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by seeh

[seeh]

some of you know already that i play since a while with icons in name with a special meaning that will added automatically if i use this mods:

♤ proGUI mod, ♇ autocivP mod

maybe thats a good transparency ?

and also when i start a rated game then automatically a list of all mods i use are posted.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

5 hours ago, alre said:

it does not. have you tried playing with the mod? becasuse you really seem to be talking only on the base of assumptions.

Why do people keep saying I assume everything I am talking about? Of course I have played with the mod. It feels like I am sitting 'above' the game and not actually controlling the structures. I was playing an entirely different game.

5 hours ago, alre said:

BTW,  I know everybody loves autociv, but autociv's active pause should also be banned if progui is. whenever the game is paused it gives a concrete advantage to those players that have it.

Right, but this is unintended and relatively harmless. And it is also not due to autociv, as far as I understand. There is a separate discussion for it. I do think it should be patched so that directing units while paused is no longer possible. So, this is not a good comparison.

[roscany]

I would refrain from calling it a "cheat;" that seems rather antagonistic. Its a skill in some sense - some players are better at strategically using it than others - but it does feel like its stripping an essential part of the core 0 AD experience, which is why I can't get behind it. I do think it creates an unfair advantage, but I wouldn't go as far as calling it a cheat. Admittedly, I've never tried it. I think the stock 0 AD interface is pretty good, so I don't feel the need.

Edited September 6, 2023 by roscany

[roscany]

On 5/9/2023 at 10:14 AM, seeh said:

AutoCiv Mod (with OP hotkey configuration): The AutoCiv mod, with its powerful hotkey configuration, can provide players with a significant advantage in terms of efficiency and speed in executing in-game actions. This can streamline gameplay and give players an edge in terms of productivity and decision-making. Estimated influence: around 2-8% improvement in performance.

What are the other functions of the autociv mod? I thought it only had to do with selecting civs before the game starts lol...

[real_tabasco_sauce]

39 minutes ago, roscany said:

On 05/09/2023 at 10:14 AM, seeh said:

AutoCiv Mod (with OP hotkey configuration): The AutoCiv mod, with its powerful hotkey configuration, can provide players with a significant advantage in terms of efficiency and speed in executing in-game actions. This can streamline gameplay and give players an edge in terms of productivity and decision-making. Estimated influence: around 2-8% improvement in performance.

What are the other functions of the autociv mod? I thought it only had to do with selecting civs before the game starts lol...

The hotkeys are great. Also, you can set the limit on the number of dead bodies so that the game runs a little faster. I notice it on my computer.

[guerringuerrin]

You can not compare a standard of any RTS such as hotkeys with an interface that self-manages the barracks. This discussion about whether or not it is cheating is sterile. Let's say things as they are, while some must look for which barracks was inactive others do not need to waste time on it. It is a clear advantage in favor of the second case.

If the game lacks of hotkeys it is because of an obvious development problem. Auto manage barracks is substantial change in gaming experience and the reasons are pretty obvious.

[alre]

1 hour ago, guerringuerrin said:

You can not compare a standard of any RTS such as hotkeys with an interface that self-manages the barracks. This discussion about whether or not it is cheating is sterile. Let's say things as they are, while some must look for which barracks was inactive others do not need to waste time on it. It is a clear advantage in favor of the second case.

If the game lacks of hotkeys it is because of an obvious development problem. Auto manage barracks is substantial change in gaming experience and the reasons are pretty obvious.

if you say autociv makes up for lacking game features, you could say the same for progui: it makes up for a faulty built-in autoqueue and for a particularly complicated batch training system.

Besides, no one is saying progui is not an advantage, but every element on Seeh's list is.