"auto-sniping" thoughts and tests

[Atrik]

Why?

I was recently having discussions with some smart community members. I shared with them my reasoning:

Quote

I always found rly unnecessary to have to click 100 times to have my ranged units focus on enemy ranged/weakest units. Thing every players has to do multiple times in a battle: Every time you override orders (for instance you want to move your group of ranged units) you must do this thing again (20-100clicks every time). I strongly believe that having this automated (actually fixed, a stance like focus weakest enemy in range) wouldn't be as game-changer that many seems to believe.
It would just be more interesting battles where players pay increased attention to unit placement, rather then locking attack on units and letting units positions to pathfinder.

Sniping is definitively not, following 0AD vision on Repetition - "If you find yourself doing the same action over and over without thought, then we need to either eliminate or automate such an action. Linear repetitious procedures are meaningless and boring."

Manual sniping is as today, very clearly on the very repetitive end of the spectrum.

Testing if this would be OP

A mod in development from a very smart community member, gave me the opportunity to emulate some kind of "auto-sniping". I was surprise to find out it was indeed very effective, and beating by far a top player sniping skills: NoobDude (That I have 0 chances to beat normally). I was very surprise because my expectations was that it would make little difference compared to player manual sniping.

So I though about just putting the idea into a hole forever...
... But since my initial reasoning was still holding true, and smart members were agreeing that it was, in theory, undesirable to have to have to spam so much clicks to control a very simple behavior, sniping still feels like a problem needing a solution.

How could this be addressed

unit_action.js, already have a kind of class filter for "attack-move". Another way I found to get a sens of what would such feature could feel like.

"attack-move":
	{
		"execute": function(position, action, selection, queued, pushFront)
		{
			let targetClasses;
			if (Engine.HotkeyIsPressed("session.attackmoveUnit"))
				targetClasses = { "attack": ["Unit"] };
			else
				targetClasses = { "attack": ["Unit", "Structure"] };

Implementing a stance, or hotkey, in main game that would help players "attack weakest unit in range" or another similar feature may change the meta.
But this "sniping" meta of is arguably not most rewarding mechanics you can hope for a strategy game.

TLDR: No script publicly exist for (practically) sniping in a multiplayer game. I think we should however seek to fix the compulsive clicking required for sniping. This won't end 0AD, but may give way to the implementation of more interesting mechanics, and game-play metas. Also the unfair advantage that this could provide may deter any moders to do it. The best approach could be to have it in native game.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Atrik

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Interesting developments! There has been work by @real_tabasco_sauce to give melee units more combat value which would go a long way to make sniping a secondary form of micro, with actual movement, formations, and positioning being more important. Sniping, automatic or not, is not a great place for the game to be.

During fall of 2021, the meta was all about melee units (mainly pikemen) allowing ranged units to be invincible. Around that time I learned how to snipe using option/alt after watching berhudar spread women out on his berries and since then I have been teaching players to snipe who are frustrated/want to learn how. I figured if everyone knew about it it would be fair, but its just not good to have such a powerful micro technique not be obvious to newer players, 0ad in multiplayer right now is basically divided by those who snipe and those who don't. I suppose we just have to all vote for @real_tabasco_sauce's melee rework when its on the ballot

[real_tabasco_sauce]

5 hours ago, Atrik said:

"If you find yourself doing the same action over and over without thought, then we need to either eliminate or automate such an action. Linear repetitious procedures are meaningless and boring."

I say we should address this at the without thought item:

bring balance to melee vs ranged engagements -> sniping becomes one of many options for micro AND only certain fights may be won by sniping.

[Atrik]

7 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I say we should address this at the without thought item:

I get your point.

But I stand that it is very reasonable to think of a stance or hotkey that would save players from having to click 100 times, to achieve the same as this example of amendment to unit_action.js "attack-move" :

else if (Engine.HotkeyIsPressed("session.attackWeakUnits"))
   targetClasses = { "attack": ["Ranged", "Support"] };

2 Lines of code => Hotkey to do "Auto-sniping" available in vanilla 0ad to everyone.

 

I guess the idea is setting some people uncomfortable because the current meta is sniping, and we all tend to be attached to our playing habits. But metas evolve as the game does, so I think this is worth talking about.

[Atrik]

10 minutes ago, Atrik said:

this example of amendment to unit_action.js "attack-move" :

I don't think this is a good approach btw, I'll rather prefer having it managed by a stance of something. Just using this to demonstrate that it would be so simple to do it.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Atrik

[causative]

21 minutes ago, Atrik said:

else if (Engine.HotkeyIsPressed("session.attackWeakUnits"))
   targetClasses = { "attack": ["Ranged", "Support"] };

2 Lines of code => Hotkey to do "Auto-sniping" available in vanilla 0ad to everyone.

That's only part of what sniping does. The other part is that you distribute your fire over a big portion of the enemy army, instead of wasting tons of damage on overkill of one unit at a time.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

24 minutes ago, Atrik said:

I guess the idea is setting some people uncomfortable because the current meta is sniping, and we all tend to be attached to our playing habits. But metas evolve as the game does, so I think this is worth talking about.

I just think that level of control of your units should not be automated. I agree that whoever has the faster clicks should not always win a fight and that sniping is not a desirable meta, as @BreakfastBurrito_007 pointed out, but can we let the-fine tuned control of units remain a learnable skill?

there is fun in trying to find the lowest HP cav that rushed your early eco and being able to kill it as they retreat.

Also there is fun in sniping if you know it will be effective because you have learned when it is effective.

Adding a stance to do automatic sniping will add a level of automation that doesn't fit with the behavior of other stances, or any other configurable behavior in the game. 

Also, when the sniping meta is fixed, automatic sniping will probably just mislead new players into thinking ranged targets should be prioritized, when in reality it depends on many more factors.

perhaps you would take interest in attack ground? I would find this to be a much more generally applicable attack mode. Its got a few nuances in terms of implementation, like how to smoothly choose the radius while selecting the area to attack, and whether or not the attack should be one volley or endless attacks.

 

[Atrik]

 

48 minutes ago, causative said:

That's only part of what sniping does. The other part is that you distribute your fire over a big portion of the enemy army, instead of wasting tons of damage on overkill of one unit at a time.

True, the test I did with NoobDude WAS emulating the sniping of 1 unit attacking 1 unit automatically. I can show you if interested. I am not sure it's necessary to have a feature doing perfect sniping, If units would attack individually the closest enemy (matching the criteria) to themselves, this would already naturally spread the unit focus.

I insisted this was a illustrative example, demonstrating that "sniping" wouldn't require any bots or scripts, but would look like a very basic amendment, if ever it was considered like a desirable feature.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Atrik

[real_tabasco_sauce]

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D1971

^for attack ground

[Atrik]

57 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I just think that level of control of your units should not be automated. I agree that whoever has the faster clicks should not always win a fight and that sniping is not a desirable meta, as @BreakfastBurrito_007 pointed out, but can we let the-fine tuned control of units remain a learnable skill?

there is fun in trying to find the lowest HP cav that rushed your early eco and being able to kill it as they retreat.

Also there is fun in sniping if you know it will be effective because you have learned when it is effective.

Adding a stance to do automatic sniping will add a level of automation that doesn't fit with the behavior of other stances, or any other configurable behavior in the game. 

Also, when the sniping meta is fixed, automatic sniping will probably just mislead new players into thinking ranged targets should be prioritized, when in reality it depends on many more factors.

Ok... I guess I'll accept that a re-balancing would kinda make disappear the justifications for a stance to be able to attack ranged units. Sounds reasonable.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Atrik

[causative]

1 hour ago, Atrik said:

 

True, the test I did with NoobDude WAS emulating the sniping of 1 unit attacking 1 unit automatically. I can show you if interested. I am not sure it's necessary to have a feature doing perfect sniping, If units would attack individually the closest enemy (matching the criteria) to themselves, this would already naturally spread the unit focus.

I insisted this was a illustrative example, demonstrating that "sniping" wouldn't require any bots or scripts, but would look like a very basic amendment, if ever it was considered like a desirable feature.

There would still be significant overkill, especially with archers, because at any time there are only a handful of the "most forward" enemy units. Might be an especially large overkill with archers because all the archers stand in roughly the same spot so they would all have similar or the same "closest" units.

Perfect sniping wouldn't be 1 unit attacking 1 unit, but maybe 5 attacking 1, depending on the average turns to kill. It is better to kill 50% of the enemy army while leaving the rest untouched, than to damage the whole enemy army by 50%. So you do want to focus on a subset of units, while not focusing so much that overkill is excessive.

[alre]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I just think that level of control of your units should not be automated. I agree that whoever has the faster clicks should not always win a fight and that sniping is not a desirable meta, as @BreakfastBurrito_007 pointed out, but can we let the-fine tuned control of units remain a learnable skill?

there is fun in trying to find the lowest HP cav that rushed your early eco and being able to kill it as they retreat.

Also there is fun in sniping if you know it will be effective because you have learned when it is effective.

Adding a stance to do automatic sniping will add a level of automation that doesn't fit with the behavior of other stances, or any other configurable behavior in the game. 

Also, when the sniping meta is fixed, automatic sniping will probably just mislead new players into thinking ranged targets should be prioritized, when in reality it depends on many more factors.

perhaps you would take interest in attack ground? I would find this to be a much more generally applicable attack mode. Its got a few nuances in terms of implementation, like how to smoothly choose the radius while selecting the area to attack, and whether or not the attack should be one volley or endless attacks.

there still will be fun in finding new tactics and micro techniques, just not this one.

[Barcodes]

nerd sh1t bro wtf

Edited July 21, 2023 by Barcodes

[Stockfish]

Man, what in the hell are you doing. Sniping is something everybody can do or learn, and also a part of this game. With this mod you are destroying the game absolutely.

What's next, if you dont play good install this mod to make everybody equal, if you don't know how to fight download this mod to fight only winning fights, if no runs.

I am destroying my fingers sniping and trained for so long and now everybody will snipe perfectly? What in the hell is this.

[Stockfish]

Put 2 IAs to play and let's spec

 

[MarcusAureliu#s]

Hosts must just learn to set mod rules before game starts. The modders can play around as much as they like.

[borg-]

How is this different from an aimbot in counter strike for example? I'm totally against it.

[Stockfish]

1 minute ago, borg- said:

How is this different from an aimbot in counter strike for example? I'm totally against it.

+1

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

While its obvious the need for sniping comes from a balance situation that can be improved, I don't think auto-sniping would help improve gameplay. I am also very concerned about other things in the pro-GUI mod but this one would be most OP by far.

[alre]

among my friends, two use proGUI/proResize and two don't. We are always having fun.

I can't see why you are so concerned, the game stays good, the competition is still fun. We make TGs and players come back game after game, even though the four of us always make one team.

even in rated 1v1, if someone enhances their ability with mods, they will be easily discovered. of course two can also agree to play a game with fair use of mods, rated games can be played with deathmatch resources, or with revealed map, so what's the bother is some want to play it yet another way.

Edited July 21, 2023 by alre

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Deathmatch and revealed map are fair since it applies to everyone. ProGUI is not since players can choose to use it in a game where other people don't use it. Right now there is not really a mutual agreement not to use it in multiplayer, and my worry is that it could become the standard for multiplayer because people want to use it to win. If it becomes the standard for multiplayer, then people who enjoy the game without the automated "easy mode" won't be able to find games to join.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, alre said:

among my frinds, me and I use proGUI/proResize and two don't. We are always having fun.

I can't see why you are so concerned, the game stays good, the competition is still fun. We make TGs and players come back game after game, even though the four of us always make one team.

even in rated 1v1, if someone enhances their ability with mods, they will be easily discovered. of course two can also agree to play a game with fair use of mods, rated games can be played with deathmatch resources, or with revealed map, so what's the bother is some want to play it yet another way.

1 hour ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Deathmatch and revealed map are fair since it applies to everyone. ProGUI is not since players can choose to use it in a game where other people don't use it. Right now there is not really a mutual agreement not to use it in multiplayer, and my worry is that it could become the standard for multiplayer because people want to use it to win. If it becomes the standard for multiplayer, then people who enjoy the game without the automated "easy mode" won't be able to find games to join.

Yeah, thats why I think the best verdict here is to allow its use as a mod but allow hosts to ban it and consider it cheating in competitive games.

[alre]

43 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Yeah, thats why I think the best verdict here is to allow its use as a mod but allow hosts to ban it and consider it cheating in competitive games.

please, if there's any quarrel about cheating in a "competitive game", please do post the replay on the forum, and the screenshots of the discussion.

[halep]

2 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Yeah, thats why I think the best verdict here is to allow its use as a mod but allow hosts to ban it and consider it cheating in competitive games.

you can make any mod hidden to everyone. now they can only suspect you but they won't have evidence. you can host game in front of them and they won't see anything. send me a personal message if you want to know more. it's not cool to talk about cheats in public, but the bug is there.   

 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

interesting point @halep. I really don't think its healthy for players to have to investigate each other for having cheat mods so I think some kind of identifier should be emplaced. I think genuine GUI mods or visibility mods, such as autociv, feldmap, and some others that don't have macros should be left as they are as they don't cause balance problems.