New Civ for Alpha 28+?

[Genava55]

1 minute ago, Yekaterina said:

Separate the horse rider template and the horse template, then study the capture of catafalques or siege towers from A23 code, then implement those into the horse part. The technical part should be manageable.

22 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Capturing stables. but limiting the cost and number of units.This did AoE II with the Native Americans.

In fact almost the same should be done with Indian and African elephants.

This is 0 A.D. copying AoE 2 once again but why not. This is a nice mechanic. Although mostly accessible late in the game.

[Yekaterina]

1 minute ago, Genava55 said:

Although mostly accessible late in the game.

I have an even better idea: insert the template of siege towers into wild gaia horses, so that you can capture them and ride them early on. This may be useful for potential American civs who don't currently have cavalry units.

 

 

[Alar1k]

15 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

I have an even better idea: insert the template of siege towers into wild gaia horses, so that you can capture them and ride them early on. This may be useful for potential American civs who don't currently have cavalry units.

 

 

I agree with this and would also add one thing that got forgotten from a24(25)? when there were stated "bonuses" for captured animals garrisoned in corral which never got implemented - if you could capture wild gaia it would be neat to be able to put them to use with a small buff like 1%move speed per horse for example (wild lions/tigers could give +0.2 attack damage and cows/pigs could buff hp points by small margin) - although it seems like it would be rough to implement and tricky to balance

[Lion.Kanzen]

Yamatai also hasn't native  horse units.

 

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Most nomads civs do not use fields, only corrals.(Yet that's no longer a problem with the food trickle).

[hyperion]

12 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Maybe you are not getting my point. They won't have any interactions with the current civs. Ever. They were historically and geographically disconnected. You cannot add a missing link. Furthermore, we don't know their history. There is only a few inscriptions known from this period and we don't have any info about the events they lived. 

We can't name a battle they fought or a king they had at this time. It is only much later we know their history better.

Being connected or easily balanced or similar I don't consider valid reasons. The more different or spread around the globe the better I'd say. As long as the AI can reasonably play them.

On the other hand I fully agree that we need enough historical material to not make it a fantasy game. Inventing structures and units for the sake of game play isn't a good thing at all. We probably do this to often already.

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 minutes ago, hyperion said:

units for the sake of game play isn't a good thing at all. We probably do this to often already.

It's not invented, it's reasoned, why didn't they have horses?

Why did the Romans, for example, come to use elephants  in Britain?

To invent would be to give them swords and pikes.

The justification is based on history.

The same can be said with the Dacians using catapults.

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

It's not invented, it's reasoned, why didn't they have horses?

Why did the Romans, for example, come to use elephants  in Britain?

To invent would be to give them swords and pikes.

The justification is based on history.

The same can be said with the Dacians using catapults.

By the way, it is not that the mechanics are implemented.The Japanese (Yamatai) also have no cavalry (except mercenaries). It remains fantasy and speculation.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Lion.Kanzen

[hyperion]

43 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

It's not invented, it's reasoned, why didn't they have horses?

Because they went extinct around ice age and were only reintroduced by the Spanish? Not sure what the current science stand is on the topic. I just remember that this one is/was hotly debated due to the book of Mormon.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Most nomads civs do not use fields, only corrals.

This is a bit overblown. Some groups of nomads did farm, seasonally.  

 

Quote

(Yet that's no longer a problem with the food trickle).

It would be very interesting to try to leverage this for nomads and make it more viable. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

This is a bit overblown. Some groups of nomads did farm, seasonally

So they should have non-infinite fields.

2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

It would be very interesting to try to leverage this for nomads and make it more viable

This would make them different in their play style.

[Loki1950]

RE: Horses in the Americas pre Spanish Goggle "Ojibwe spirit horse"

Enjoy the Choice  

[real_tabasco_sauce]

3 hours ago, Genava55 said:

This is 0 A.D. copying AoE 2 once again but why not.

9 hours ago, Genava55 said:

We don't have any accounts about them.

3 hours ago, Genava55 said:

We don't even know any event from this period.

I would say there is certainly enough historical knowledge, it just has to be researched. We don't need to know exactly how many troops were at X battle at Y time, just that fighting occurred. Weaponry is well understood.

I am not sure about the particular civs we are talking about, but it is often the case that real historical events are recorded in folklore

Cavalry can be trained with a limit from captured stables. It is a straightforward and logical mechanic. Economy can be fairly simple but strong with less emphasis on metal (on that note, perhaps a civ bonus could be less metal cost for blacksmith techs, but increased research time. Another option would be replace metal costs here with stone).

To say they used no metal is wrong, there seems to be plenty of metal usage, just not casting iron swords and the like as seen in Eurasian and African civs.

[Lion.Kanzen]

6 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

blacksmith techs, but increased research time. Another option would be replace metal costs here with stone

this is the most important and have sense.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Of course instead of cavalry we could have a couple types of "fast dudes" costing something more like 80 food 50 wood rather than 100 and 50, with adjusted stats of speed, hp, armor and perhaps interesting weapon choices.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

So they should have non-infinite fields.

That could be one way to do it, but to keep micro down we could just keep the infinite farms and deny them 1 of the farming techs and substitute it for another Corralling tech.

Edited February 11, 2023 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

10 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Of course instead of cavalry we could have a couple types of "fast dudes" costing something more like 80 food 50 wood rather than 100 and 50, with adjusted stats of speed, hp, armor and perhaps interesting weapon choices.

The Maya and to a lesser extent the Zapotec mods do this.  

[Lion.Kanzen]

50 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

That could be one way to do it, but to keep micro down we could just keep the infinite farms and deny them 1 of the farming techs and substitute it for another Corralling tech.

Weren't the corrals supposed to keep the micro down?

[Lion.Kanzen]

Many Native American cultures they were good with the discipline of running and jogging.

 

 

 

https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/home/the-art-of-aztec-running

for now we have combined it with a hunter unit.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

38 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Weren't the corrals supposed to keep the micro down?

I meant the micro of reseeding finite farms.

[Yekaterina]

Currently the speed of 0ad infantry units already walk way faster than Usain Bolt's maximum speed, so there is no harm in making a new unit that looks like an infantry but has identical stats to cavalry.

[AIEND]

2 小时前，BreakfastBurrito_007 说：

当然，除了骑兵，我们还可以有几种类型的“快速家伙”，其成本更像是 80 食物 50 木材，而不是 100 和 50，并调整了速度、生命值、装甲和可能有趣的武器选择的统计数据。

This is what AoE2&AoE3 does. This type of infantry is called "shock infantry", but to be honest, in 0AD, a game that is more realistic and does not favor hard restraint, we cannot make infantry really replace cavalry. If it is true that humans can outrun horses with two legs, why did the native tribes of North America domesticate horses and become the best riders?

[AIEND]

5 小时前，wowgetoffyourcellphone 说：

这有点夸张了。 一些游牧民族按季节务农。   

Xiongnu would import iron farming tools from the Han Dynasty to cultivate, and some archeology in the Mongolian steppe has confirmed this.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

9 minutes ago, AIEND said:

Xiongnu would import iron farming tools from the Han Dynasty to cultivate, and some archeology in the Mongolian steppe has confirmed this.

Yeah, the nomads should still have Farm Fields. 

[Genava55]

3 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

historical knowledge

Are you sure that historical is the correct word? Archaeological yes. Historical no. 

Archaeology doesn't give you easy answers. Quite the contrary.

3 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I am not sure about the particular civs we are talking about, but it is often the case that real historical events are recorded in folklore

Folklore from 2500/2000 years ago? 

[AIEND]

3 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

骑兵可以在被俘获的马厩中受限训练。 这是一个简单而合乎逻辑的机制。 经济可以相当简单但强大，对金属的重视程度较低（在这一点上，文明奖励可能会减少铁匠技术的金属成本，但会增加研究时间。另一种选择是用石头代替金属成本）。

 

说他们不使用金属是不对的，金属的使用似乎很多，只是没有像欧亚和非洲文明那样铸造铁剑之类的东西。

We cannot assume the possible development of a civilization after encountering other civilizations. Our games cannot assume history, but only reflect the history that has actually been experienced. If you assume that the Native Americans in BC obtained horses and domesticated them to produce cavalry, then 0AD becomes an alternate history game, so how can we represent the real and unique native American civilization?
Secondly, Native Americans mainly use natural copper to make copper utensils, but rarely can process bronze, and copper is very soft, not suitable for weapons, nor can it replace stone tools, so American civilization has been in the period of copper and stone for a long time, Tahuantinsuyu There is a technology for processing bronze, but that is very late.