ShadowOfHassen
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Posts posted by ShadowOfHassen
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Last text for Han, the overview: https://github.com/TheShadowOfHassen/0-ad-history-encyclopedia-mod/compare/main...han_overview?expand=1
I really don't know who to ask about getting the encyclopedia in mainstream. @Stan` I know you're leaving, but could you tell me who I should ask?
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Here's one for all the country music fans...
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You can get the demo of the game for free on steam. It was fun. I liked reliving childhood memories replaying the Morgan Black campaign, it's probably my favorite RTS campaign with knights and pirates and a really cool bagpipe theme...
I prefer 0 A.D.'s HUD, its closer to the original AOE3
I don't like how the developers are trying to squeeze every cent out of players with 80 dlcs and expansions, though.
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OK, here's a small PR with mixins and a few other tweaks for the encyclopedia
https://github.com/TheShadowOfHassen/0-ad-history-encyclopedia-mod/pull/118
So, me and @Vantha have been talking, and we want to start adding what we have already written into mainline. We don't have a text for everything yet, but we've almost finished the Han dynasty, and we think 3 civs + a ton of other articles is enough to implement. Also, this will make it easier going on because, the developers haven't stopped balancing the game while we work and already the data files that are in the encyclopedia repository are different from the ones in mainstream.
We can wait longer if the dev team is really busy, but we think it's time to add it.
In order to do so, can I just use the 0 A.D. GitHub mirror here? https://github.com/0ad/0ad I already know how to use GitHub, and it'd be easier than figuring out phabricator. If it's easier to use phabricator I can use it, but someone might have to answer a few questions.
Two more things: First, it would be great if we could move our sources also to mainstream so we don't have to juggle things in 2 different repositories. Maybe put them in /doc?
Second: When the encyclopedia gets merged, it would be great if any changes to the encyclopedia be run past either me or @Vantha. Like projects have for code, with the articles, we have a certain style we're going for, and a bar of quality we'd like to make sure is met.
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At @Vantha's request, I rewrote his article for the Han temple and addressed some of the problems raised by @AIEND.
https://github.com/TheShadowOfHassen/0-ad-history-encyclopedia-mod/pull/114
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Interestingly enough, just with a little research I did apparently, the Indian women did wear the clothing depicted in the game. They thought the belly bottom was a door to the soul and so had it uncovered.
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Just now, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
It's because it's talking about the modern idealization of Sparta
On one hand, yes. But, @Thorfinn the Shallow Minded does have a point. One of the biggest red flags when I'm researching any history is seen if they try to apply or compare things to the modern day. If they do, usually I try to steer around them because almost always they have some point. An Agenda, if you will, that they are trying to play into. And when you try to compare things like that, a bias forms which can really taint what is being written.
Also, @Thorfinn the Shallow Minded, I'm actually interested. In your research, how bad off were the Helots? I know they were bad compared to the modern sense. Was it as some history rights all war and oppression or was it less. I'm inclined to think less. What historical records we do have blend myth and reality often, and while we can't throw away what they have to say, it's a possibility that the same people who write about blood falling at Ceaser's death and the "river horses" might have also heard some pretty strange stories about the crazy Greeks who lived in the mountains.
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This game has a really amazing soundtrack. Years ago when I first discovered the game, I downloaded the zip with the soundtrack in it and from time to time I listen to them while writing. @OmriLahav did an amazing job with composing it.
I'm wondering what are you all's favorite songs in the game?
My top three:
Celtic Pride
Calm Before the Storm
and finally my absolute favorite and one of my favorite songs from video a vide game soundtrack Tavern in the Mist.
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3 minutes ago, Genava55 said:
The article starts like this:
Many self-professed champions of freedom throughout the centuries have looked to ancient Sparta as an inspiration. The doomed stand of 300 Spartan warriors against the Persian Empire at Thermopylae in 480 B.C.E.—the subject of Zack Snyder’s 2006 film 300—has been particularly influential for figures ranging from Lord Byron rallying support for Greek independence from the Ottomans to Cold Warriors mythologizing the virtues of the “West” against the Soviet Union. It’s easy to ridicule such a simplistic view of history, and to point out that the Spartans might not have deserved their reputation as invincible warriors. But the blunders and brutalities of today’s champions of “Western civilization” follow Sparta’s example remarkably closely. This should give us pause.
So it is not the last stand of the 300 but the idealization of Spartans and of the city-state Sparta that is criticized.
When I read it, it seemed to be a bit of both. But that's something that we can easily agree to disagree. I do like how they're trying to inform people on what actually happened.
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24 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
I think the point of the articles is that mythology omits large portions of Spartan culture and history and is probably not something we should emulate in modern times.
They do say that, and for the most I'd agree. Secret police, slavery and the agoge are things almost no sane person would do today. However, the articles seemed to make the argument that because of those things the story of the 300 should not be held up as an example of bravery and sacrifice that should be emulated (as it has been up as since the day it happened)
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10 minutes ago, Genava55 said:
You are confusing the Perioikoi and the Helots. The Perioikoi lived in cities and were free men. The Helots lived in the countryside, in villages.
If I can quote an excerpt from the book "Greek Slave Systems in their Eastern Mediterranean Context c.800-146 BC" to answer you, here it is:
<< What we might call ‘communal intervention’ went much further, however, than merely the occasional borrowing of a helot without the permission of his owner. The Old Oligarch, writing in the 420s, laments the inability of Athenian citizens to strike capriciously any slaves within their reach, a practice that he fondly notes is possible in Sparta ([Xen.] Ath. Pol. 1.10–12). This ability of non-owners to beat slaves is further attested by the Hellenistic historian Myron of Priene, known for his pro-Messenian and anti-Spartan attitudes. Myron writes that the Spartans forced the helots to wear degrading clothes, prescribed for them an annual whipping (to remind them they were slaves), and permitted magistrates to execute any helots whose physical size and vigour they thought inappropriate for a slave—fining the helot’s owner as well for letting him reach such girth (FGrHist 106 F2 ap. Athen. 14.74. 657c–d). This might sound sensational, but the rationale of such measures— that is, targeting large, powerful helots who might be potential rebel leaders—is observable in fifth- and fourth-century sources as well. Aristotle’s description of the krypteia is perhaps the best example of this. According to his account, from time to time youths would be sent into the countryside armed with daggers and carrying only the most meagre rations. They would hide during the day, emerging at night to kill any helots whom they found abroad on the roads (surely some manner of curfew is implied). They would also infiltrate the fields and dispatch those who were particularly large or vigorous (Arist. fr. 538 [Rose] ap. Plu. Lyc. 28. 1–4; cf. Arist. fr. 611.10 [Rose] ap. Herakleides fr. 10 [Dilts]). Aristotle further noted (ap. Plu. Lyc. 28.4) that the ephors declared war on the helots each year, thus absolving those Spartiates (surely for the most part the krypteia) who murdered helots from miasma, effectively granting them a ‘licence to kill’. All of these sources tally with the remark of Critias (in the epigraph to this chapter) that at Sparta were to be found the most enslaved and the most free of men, which must refer to helots and Spartiates: helots—of all Greek slaves—were subject to the most oppressive and unusual means of control; Spartiates—of all free Greeks—were those most liberated from the need to perform manual labour.
Let us sum up so far. The picture painted by our contemporary sources is that individual Spartans were able to own helots, and this included the power to sell them, though not outside Spartan territory; they could not manumit them in any way whatsoever. Furthermore, their helots could be commandeered by their fellow citizens for minor tasks, and could be disciplined by them as well. Most remarkably, the state could manumit or even kill these apparently privately owned slaves. It is now necessary both to explain why these rules existed and then to determine whether or not such measures of communal intervention push helotage outside our classificatory scheme of private ownership. >>
Another one:
<< The most famous act of state brutality of this ilk is the alleged massacre of 2,000 helots narrated by Thucydides (4.80), who says that a proclamation was made to the helots inviting those who thought they had served the state well in war to come forward and receive their freedom. Those who answered the summons processed around the temples, but then promptly disappeared; nobody knew how each individual died. >>
You are probably right about the Helots. However, I still haven't seen how the Spartans have mistreated the other Greek city states they had conquered, any more than other ancient civilizations. And I do think that both articles were written with a very specific points in mind, and reality was probably less extreme than they portrayed. If you can have evidence to the contrary, I'd be happy to see it.
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14 minutes ago, Vantha said:
We already have a wall mixin, however, I think the Great Wall deserves a text of its own:
https://github.com/TheShadowOfHassen/0-ad-history-encyclopedia-mod/pull/112
I should've thought of that.
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1 hour ago, Genava55 said:
Which claim do you find too extreme? When they say Sparta relying heavily on slavery?
What I thought was wrong was the consistent attempt of both the articles to take the (although probably too idealized) mindset of Sparta we have and run in the entire other direction (How horrible Sparta was). Rarely is history black and white, and arguing that Sparta was actually black instead of white is really of no use. It would be much better to show the full color of the civilization.
For example: Yes, Sparta did rely on the Helots for manual labor. However, it was technically less like slavery and more like oppressed serfdom -- not to say that Sparta didn't own slaves, but the Helot population as a whole weren't slaves. The Helots were more like a really low class. If my memory serves me right, when I researched Sparta I read that the Helots had their own towns, and some translated inscriptions from the area that seemed to suggest that helots weren't constrained to the Spartan's minimalist lifestyle, and sometimes lived more lavishly than their "oppressors"
Also, I have not found a single piece of evidence that Sparta treated the people they conquered worse than any other civilization did. That sounds a bit strange, unless you recall that there were a few other people who lived in Sparta with the Spartans and Helots and while they were still second rate citizens they weren't mistreated like the Helots.
I think the second article has a grain of truth in it, but like the other article, he took it too far to try to prove a point.
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1 hour ago, Genava55 said:
While both of those articles are pushing against a romanticized version of Sparta, something that is to be applauded. I wouldn't recommend taking what they say as the gospel truth. According to my research, Sparta was probably somewhere between the two extremes.
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7 hours ago, Vantha said:
Is it worth suggesting name changes like this? Because I'd have some too from my research for the encyclopedia.
Open a PR with them, and people can look them over to see if they agree.
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55 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
It was a literal translation, yeah. We can call it "Taixue", since that is an actual institution. It's not a military academy, but it's an opportunity to teach something about the Han.
Ok, I can make the change to my Pr so that the building's real name can be "Taixue" Then once the Han is finished and we (hopefully) start adding article's to the game, we don't forget to change it's name.
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So I was looking up the Han Imperial academy again, and it looks like it's referring to the Taixue during the Han period.(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taixue)
However, the real name of the structure is the Dìguó Xuéyuàn. I can find nothing with that name.
Am I missing something?
Also, here's a PR for both the Han academy and the ministry, rounding up the Han's structures. https://github.com/TheShadowOfHassen/0-ad-history-encyclopedia-mod/pull/111
I think all we have to do is the heroes rewriting the overview.
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You fixed it @Vantha, there was just another slash that I was missing.
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7 minutes ago, Vantha said:
Btw, @ShadowOfHassen have you managed to fix the error?
No, unfortunately not, I'm in the hands of the more experienced people.
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You could try an app image or flatpak. They'd probably be easier than compiling the game from source.
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34 minutes ago, Norse_Harold said:
Might the team making the builtin encyclopedia find it useful to have custom illustrations?
Both I and @Vanthawould love them. However, at the moment there's no point because to my best knowledge the engine lacks the features that are needed to display them. @wowgetoffyourcellphone made some designs for a new UI, but someone more programming inclined would need to implement them. I haven't heard or seen anything about @Lion.Kanzensince this summer... Hopefully he's OK.
Anyway...
@carpinchonegro, welcome to the forum! I think @wowgetoffyourcellphone can find something for you to help with his mod. If not, I'm sure whoever kills @Stan` and take the green laurel of 0 A.D. project emperor will have some work for you. However, that might take a while. Someone told Stan what happened to Nero, and he hasn't had a bath in months!
Joking (of course) Well, at least part of it. Someone should be able to help you get started, @carpinchonegro, I found this on the developer wiki: https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/WikiStart#Forartists: It looks mostly for 3D artists, but still it might be worth skimming. Also, there's a forum dedicated to 0 A.D.'s art division here: https://wildfiregames.com/forum/forum/409-art-development/
Off-topic, but do we have any updates on project governance? @Vanthaand I want to start moving articles mainstream and I have some questions about updating writing guidelines/where we put extra stuff/oversight on the encyclopedia going forward as well as the important question of how do we even start?
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2 hours ago, vladislavbelov said:
Maybe cached? But I need steps to reproduce to tell more
Download the main branch of the repository, drag the mod parts into your mods, enable the then open Han in the civilization overview.(That's the fixed version)
If you want to try the bad version it's in the branch "problem" The differences between it and main is one little \. My guess is it is a cached something and after it runs an error the fixed version won't version.
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7 minutes ago, Stan` said:
Did you use \ in your changes ?
Once, there was a typo. I fixed it but the error is still there.
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I merged a few articles into mainline and then when I try to test it, I'm getting an error anybody know why?
Strategic Campaign
in Gameplay Discussion
Posted
I think you're right. We can work on the easier ones first and then move on to the more labor-intensive.