real_tabasco_sauce

in this case, it remains useless. Even in water maps with ships, you could only save something like 100 to 400 wood/metal.

Perhaps the athenian one is too powerful, I don't know yet. In that case we will modify it as needed in future releases. Team bonuses should be just powerful enough to make a difference. We see this with ptol, rome, iberians, especially, and to a lesser extent, seleucids and kushites. I will give you an example: the briton's cheaper healers is basically unknown to players in multiplayer, because it has 0 effect on gameplay. Like @BreakfastBurrito_007 says, it is not "actionable." we should avoid these.

yes but this team bonus has 0 impact on land games and basically 0 impact on water maps. The impact of the team bonus I proposed is far more impactful and interesting. Can you come up with another name for the team bonus proposed? I came up with one before, but you still think nothing of it. The name is pretty much trivial, what matters is the impact to gameplay.

seems pretty cool

Propose an alternative then. I went to the effort to try and find a bonus that players would find exciting and with enough historical historical plausibility that would explain its significant effect on gameplay, and all you two can do is shoot it down on it not being historically accurate enough. I can't believe the historical debate has yet again ballooned so much. You two need to let up. It is a videogame, not a historical nonfiction. Please propose another alternative (I already did and @AIEND and @LetswaveaBook don't seem to notice, perhaps because they are busy hating on my idea).

? Nobody is praising Athenian democracy, we are only using it as a plausible justification for a team bonus. Why are you so insistent? have you looked at other team bonuses, they aren't exactly real life simulation. That being said, democracy allowed normal citizens to access power that would normally only be for nobility (ex. Themistocles). One could say that democratically elected leaders will generally be better suited to lead their people. In addition, ideas are readily exportable, so it's not inconceivable that athenian democracy could effect other systems of leadership. Is that good enough? again: would you rather it was called "socratic scholarship?"

now I am really confused. What is wrong with the team bonus?

what do you mean cherry picking? how is Athen's bonus not fitting? It is Justified and historically plausible. Honestly, it is no less fitting as a team bonus than its successor (which was ships -10% train time, unsure how this would effect other civs IRL). Do I have to mathematically calculate a percentage from the effect(s) democracy had on athenian research efforts? Such efforts of historical simulation are really kind of silly when my skirmishers can walk in 1 minute from the British isles to China. if you dislike that it is the term "democracy" then why oppose the team bonus merge request as a whole? instead, just suggest calling it "Socratic scholarship" or something. Sorry if I seem offended, but it makes just no sense to dislike the whole patch on a single (personal) historical concern.

Well, admittedly I don't know how much impact athenian democracy really had. It is beneficial in theory to policymaking and development (technologies), and it is conceivable as a team bonus.

Ok that is fair, honestly I wouldn't say iphicrates is all that OP currently. His strength certainly comes at some limitations like you said. So as far as the vote goes, that merge request seems fairly conflicted, with plenty of outright disagreement, and plenty of 'skip/no option' which is likely partial disagreement.

So far, I'm seeing that we should probably not add the rams and the iphicrates/ptol nerf. I'm thinking we should still wait a while longer so more can vote. Is sentiment around the second one that the ptol hero should not be nerfed, but that iphicrates could use a nerf? Maybe the appropriate change then is to instead merge just the iphicrates portion.

yes, they are already glass lol, just not yet a cannon.

Classic Macintosh move

I think Han will need a couple nerfs in other areas. The farms are not what makes the civ strong.

Just curious, what are some reasons to vote against the ram speed/accel changes?

no u are not. 0ad's system of counters is far better. The natural properties of units and the ways they are used give rise to appropriate counters. (ie more sophisticated than rock paper scissors) Also, AOE style counters will likely work poorly with citizen soldiers.

yes, especially if you are worried about raids. I certainly don't think this is what makes Han considered strong by some.

Oh, I was going to say the other way around lol. Mainly because the spartans have no limit on olympic champions and they already cost 2 pop.

Wow that is some awesome art for those centurions! I agree, the centurions are famous and the system of reforms they were a part of made a huge difference to the roman military. I think in this case, it makes sense to be an upgrade for swordsmen that make it to rank 3. My thoughts are that you could allow a concurrent limit of 10 and make the upgrade fairly cheap and quick (25 food, 25 metal, 4 seconds maybe) and irreversible. The aura should be something like the Gaulish trumpeters, but a little stronger. Perhaps an aura of increased damage and speed? In this case, there may be some worry about overlap with the numerous hero bonuses affecting damage. In that case, maybe they should only affect infantry? There is key difference however compared to those spartan "olympic champions" that were proposed: those units were automatically upgraded to their promoted form upon receiving the appropriate XP. Also there was no limit as far as I remember.

I agree. It’s a problem. But it’s “necessary” this alpha because of the Han farm upgrade issue. I don’t expect this to exist going forward. Id say a part of it is that better/more frequently active players are more interested in the balance changes/new content offered in the mod, whereas the majority of players are happy to play whatever they currently do and don't bother installing.

it is, but it's a small difference IIRC. In the screenshot above, Xpert would get a marginally higher rate if there was one woman on each farm.

could be something like this too: https://www.google.com/search?q=horse+tracks&sxsrf=ALiCzsZFMkP5jo5bSF_-DGOqvhWv7psoMg:1666546916807&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiq9OiH8_b6AhUUGDQIHXH1C7oQ_AUoAXoECAMQAw&biw=1920&bih=929&dpr=1#imgrc=lVuQMHLhpHbS_M

Ah yes thats better! I'm thinking the scouting one could be a bunch of horse tracks in some dirt, then the background could made greenish for trees. Definitely a more difficult one to make.

yes, I have yet to see this function being used effectively. In theory, a large number of these could be used with CS, but you rarely get that far as pers, and when you do usually cav are better. By the way @wraitii, were you going to hold the vote on this thread? Im not sure how the tournament is progressing, but we are nearing November, so perhaps it would be best to start collecting votes on the merge requests soon. For those of you who want to vote, these are the current merge requests: https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/-/merge_requests to see the details for each file, you can just click on a merge request, and select 'changes'

By the way, is 8 seconds too long?