real_tabasco_sauce

@Philip the Swaggerless my understanding was that the mod would contain balancing solutions and some content/gameplay features (aka fun) There are parts of the game that are underdeveloped like some civ bonuses/team bonuses which could make the game more interesting. For example, how about we come up with a seleucid civ bonus? (i guess the heroes from cc is now a civ bonus)

my point is the discount on temples is completely removed. Instead there is 2 bonuses for pericles: 1) Soldiers, Ships, Buildings, and Siege within 60m give the enemies no loot (including xp) and buildings +50% capture points. 2) technology discount of 10% and faster research time. It may not be super strong, but 1) is definitely a unique and interesting option for gameplay.

theres now no such temple cost discount. This is for ALL ships versus the single ship that the hero is garrisoned in. right, thats why that hero has a potentially powerful non-naval bonus as well. BTW, I have put accurate information everywhere: gitlab, description, and screenshots of in-game tooltips, no need to guess. The whole point of this patch is to just increase the usefulness of these heroes, they will not necessarily compete with the top 5 heroes.

the ship benefits Themistocles gave before these changes were miniscule. Notice that the updated Themistocles isn't a damage/armor hero (nor is Pericles, at least directly) 1. Ship discount is actually meaningful, also has effect on ship gameplay. 2. Wall discount is designed to increase the use of the Athenian Long Walls tech, which could be interesting in some games.

u mean this? How is this worse than what they have?

see above

I understand with your point on understanding the alpha first (ie letting the "meta" settle), but these heroes have been and remain awful with, as you said, nobody using them. The idea is to make them useful, which is content. Why not add these? I could understand not changing mercenaries yet for example, as its not clear yet how effective the nerf was, but the heroes seem harmless to add.

well there are 5 already, but I wonder if we should also do a ptol nerf like @chrstgtr and @vinme suggest. I think we can increase build time for houses, storehouses, farmsteads and give pikes -2 hack armor and some additional pierce damage. the 5 existing merge requests: details here: https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/-/merge_requests feedback anyone? @chrstgtr, @BreakfastBurrito_007, @vinme, @LetswaveaBook Speed up rams by improving the turn rate and acceleration of siege units improve ram pathing/usability Pericles and Themistocles update see aforementioned auras and screenshots. Rebalance healers by making them cheaper 100 food, 25 metal cost temple techs cheaper Move tier 2 blacksmith technologies to Town Phase self explanatory Nerf heroes Iphicrates and Ptolemy Iphicrates gives +2 armor of all types instead of +3, and ptolemy -35% merc cost to -35% merc train time. ^ I think if the ptol hero is changed to train time, it should be a massive difference. Something like 60 to 75 percent faster.

whats wrong with having a preferred username? I was once a literal DNA sequence, now I'm happy to be @real_tabasco_sauce

@LetswaveaBook I can't see ur repository. Did you make a fork of the main repository? https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/-/forks

yes, I think a ptol nerf is something we can experiment with in the mod. I wanted to take aim at some tradeoff for the cheap houses, storehouses, farmsteads, but I am undecided. Honestly, I agree with pikes, 1 hack, 1.5 pierce damage per second is almost negligible, (as seen in fights where you lose your slingers). I think pikes should have the armor/damage model of the halberdiers (ji) from Han, while the ji get even more damage, even less armor. note that these are still quite different from spearmen, as the attack strength of pikemen is that many can attack the same unit at once.

I think our realism enjoyers would take interest in this. I don't know how this could be made multiplayer, but the graphics, design and vision for the game are awesome. Might be more of a sim than an RTS, but they will have some fighting mechanics apparently.

yes, I was worried too, but 0.26.2 is already widespread!

https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/-/merge_requests/8 fixed merge request XD.

yes, if I understand things correctly. I am also new to gitlab.

oh i see, @guerringuerrin, this is in the siege-acceleration-change branch, but not in the 0.26.2 branch. So basically it is being worked on, but not yet included in a release. I double checked by applying the 0.26.2 version in 0ad and comparing stats before and after.

@guerringuerrin, I didn't see this in the 0.26.2 branch. Where did you find this? I can verify the other statement tho.

here is the branch for athen heroes. https://gitlab.com/real_tabasco_sauce/0-a-d-community-mod-unit-specific-upgrades/-/tree/athen_heroes my merge request: https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/-/merge_requests/7#notes It seems the loot changes for Pericles are not working as well as the wall cost changes for Themosticles I will work on them, but they seem awesome on paper. multiply by 0 issue fixed by multiplying by 0.001 @Fabius i'm not sure. I guess it would be like the trumpet units from Gauls? Because the centurions were basically officers, right?

Ok here's my idea for Pericles, I think its pretty unique: Pericles: <Periclean defensive strategy> Soldiers, ships, buildings, and siege engines give 0 loot and + 10% damage, buildings + 50% capture points <Democratic reforms and classical literature> All technologies - 25% resource cost, -50% research time. for periclean defensive strategy, I wasn't sure if +10% damage or +1 armor was better. An alternative would be Allies soldiers, ships, buildings, and siege engines give 0 loot. Im thinking that if armor/damage is involved, <Periclean defensive strategy> should operate under an aura, with the buildings capture points remaining global. Im a little on the fence on this one, so if anyone has ideas for improvement, i'd love to hear it. At least the new hero stats are useful now lol.

sure, yes I am just referencing the walls made in part of rubble. That works too

how do yoo guys like this for themostikles 1. Naval preparation: Ships -50% metal cost -50% construction time, + 10 percent speed <Themostikles rapidly developed the athenian navy to counter the Persian fleet, and also recruited many citizens to crew the vessels> 2. Re-fortification of Athens: Stone walls, palisades -50 percent costs, -50% build time <Athens was rapidly refortified in spite of the Spartans> I will do pericles next.

@alre this is agreeable to me too, but the original complain was about the lack of upgrades in p2 limiting the potential of p2 attacks. I would say moving the level 2 forge techs would work for the above, and so would my proposed unit upgrades. I'd say we could also look at nerfing the third tier of unit upgrades, but I think that should be another discussion.

well, we wouldn't want everything in p2, would we. However, the nice thing is this is a mod, not a release, so you are right: why not? i'd say let's do it, and it's a simple change if we want to reverse it later.

@Kampot I agree with you. The other two athenian heroes are literally useless, even on water maps. I will make a branch for these other athenian heroes, probably adding an additional aura or similar feature. I think an eco bonus would be good for one of them.

i'm not sure about the blacksmith techs being moved tho. We will be doing other things to improve fighting in p2 (ie sparta patch), and currently I have seen more p2 fights than in a25. The main reason to keep them in p3 is to keep the structure which I think suits the late game well. One alternative could be to change the research times to 20 sec, 40 sec, 60 sec.