real_tabasco_sauce

I should have mentioned it earlier, and I think this is now the best option: CIV BONUS: "Agora" Champions -15% train time (maybe also +10 HP) in the next phase. p1: 100% train time, 200 health p2: 85% train time, 210 health p3: 72.25% train time, 220 health

I think the young spartan part doesn't really belong in 0ad. My complete suggestion: syssition available in p1 with a build limit of 1. Normal spear champs may be trained there (might need train time nerf in the future). apophora is available from the CC in phase 1 (replacing Hoplite tradition spot in the CC). Gerusia is available in p2 with 2-3 upgrades, and heroes in p3. The Gerusia upgrades should be: Hoplite tradition, and Krypteia: melee infantry +15% movement speed. (Available phase 2) Tyrtean paeans: champions +10% attack. Available phase 3 P3 upgrade in the syssition or fort: allows spartiates to rank up into olympic champions. As for the agoge, I am a little unsure: Perhaps it remains an upgrade (expensive one, but maybe available p2): something like -30% train time +10% HP. It would make more sense to decrease train time, since the training was standardized for all spartan males. alternatively, it could be left as is. I dislike the idea of the xp aura because this could be used to make an entire woodline rank 3. Also, olympic champions should be best obtained by fighting, not by sitting next to or inside a building.

@borg- since there is only one champion, wouldn't it be ideal if the bonus affected all melee infantry. The value could be brought down to 15% in that case. by the way, I am still against this.

I guess we cannot know how many of these have played for more than a week, a year etc. To be honest, recalling my SP days, I don't think the original changes would be good for most SP players either.

I would say another difference is those downloading many mods and playing SP are "trying out" the game and the mod.io mods, and will likely not play for a long time. I would say MP has the most longtime fans. his point is that it is extra details that the player has to do that don't add to gameplay. I would consider this annoying too. Another (extreme) example, what if we had to manually give each soldier a shield? In my opinion: too many details, and the game becomes a simulator, too few details and the game is too simple. I think this would be a simulator design choice, and that we can do other, simpler things to allow for more interesting siege. Surely you mean logarithmic here, like units building structures?

IDK, I am just not a fan of adding such specific "details" to gameplay. Should we now train horses from corrals, garrison them in stables, and then train cav? It just seems like a lot of complexity for minimal gameplay benefit. How about: 1. Rams get logarithmic speed damage bonus with garrisoned soldiers (in addition to their default "crew", which is reflected by a pop space cost of 3). 2. bring back siege capture.

Now we have effectively returned to normal rams This is more simply accomplished by giving current (a25) rams a logarithmic bonus of speed and attack when garrisoned.

micro in fighting is good, but forcing micro is not. Imagine having to train horses from the corral in order to train cavalry. I think what has been suggested could be done well with siege towers, perhaps with rams. If these changes are brought to rams, rams should be more powerful and more costly, so you would need to "micro" fewer rams.

thats why I am willing to see the siege tower tower changes, you already have to garrison them anyway. I think they should primarily deal a capture attack, with arrows being a secondary cabability.

I also think there should be some additional "special ships" The Iberian fire ship is really cool. Perhaps hospital ship

@Darkcity Boats should just have uniform speed with rowing crews inside, visible units on top of the ship are just for fighting (I like option 2 the best)

I think it is best leave bolt shooters and catapults as is currently, since they have dedicated soldiers to operate them. (their models include soldiers). It is weird to garrison a bolt shooter.

1. agree 2. agree 3. this should be not be linear all the way to 20. how about 5 units is max speed.

maybe not damaged per se, but empty like @faction02 said. Perhaps like buildings, they should be impossible to garrison if below X% HP. This way you must capture, rebuild, then garrison. I would say these changes should be accompanied by a buff to rams in general, since they will now be harder to use. Perhaps also an increase in hack armor, slight decrease in crush.

This would allow for a dedicated "transport ship" Basically a large ship (trireme/quinquereme model) used only for transporting armies. This would not have fighting capability.

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what should be the specific stats of the olympic champion? I think additional some additional move speed and plenty additional attack are probably best. Then perhaps the unit gets training aura for nearby units?

if the upgrade allows them to rank up (by fighting, garrisoning) into olympic champion, then I see no need for a limit to be honest. The way you described seems fine too.

I would say this is fine as is: ssysition and normal spartiates in p1. Upgrading into olympic champion could be available in p3. The addition of a helot worker with better metal and stone gather speed than women could be a means of affording these in p1. Then once you are in p3, you can get an upgrade just like silver shields to make olympic champions, or to allow them to rank into olympic champions. no need for 3 different units running around, with very different stats. going all in p1 spartiates means you are basically committed to stay in p1 (at least for much longer than other civs). This seems kind of accurate to be honest. Also, @borg- I like a lot of your ideas, but I am afraid this one is like training horses from the corral to allow cavalry.

ad houdini

This could be the second feature of the hero, with the primary being a loot bonus, or this: maybe a smaller radius of increased armor and damage while below 50 percent HP.

maybe a smaller radius of increased armor and damage while below 50 percent HP.

decrease dock build time

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Yeah I think the young spartan -> spartiate -> champion spartan progression with upgrades, different stats and costs is too complicated while not bringing very interesting gameplay to the table. I agree with @BreakfastBurrito_007 that more simple changes are best for differentiating sparta. We don't need to add unprecedented mechanics in the name of differentiation (AOE 4 style). Here is a list of changes (some of which are already mentioned) that would be straightfoward, yet bring significant gameplay changes: infantry movement speed upgrade and/or hero aura differentiate spartiate champs training aura, upgrade to spartiate champion (sort of like silver sheilds) or single tech pair like @wowgetoffyourcellphone suggested. Some straightforward eco bonus or addition Ex. I liked the "helot worker" idea, with different gather rate stats. No upgrades, just another eco unit other than woman. Some change in available buildings p1 (p2 perhaps) syssition or bring stoa to the spartans. Perhaps the stoa could train helot workers among a couple civic upgrades.