wowgetoffyourcellphone

This is a good idea. @Lion.Kanzen vectors?

Try searching "cow hide cc0" and see what pops up.

Crossbow dps is 6.67 pierce (with special techs it grows to 13.33, then 20). What is a slinger's dps?

I switched them because a bird carrying a branch made no sense to represent "Cartography." The map icon makes 10x more sense. I can change it back, but it's getting really irritating how every minor art change is being nitpicked.

Cavalry Archer work?

1. I think we will keep the rice fields. In the latest code they are very unique from the fields of other civilizations. 2. We can get rid of the Shoushe. It is overpowered anyway. That means they still have the traction trebuchet, battering ram, and siege tower. 3. We can add the War Chariot to the Han. I can give it the same stats as the other chariots in the game as you suggested. 4. Fair enough. I don't think the Han will need to have mercenaries after the latest changes.

Hello everyone. Please be kind: https://trac.wildfiregames.com/changeset/26469

Essentially their version of the Gallic Fanatic, but sword instead of spear?

There were a few things A23 did better than A24 for sure, but I wouldn't say just go back to it wholesale. I too prefer Champions in the Fortress, with the exception of Han, Spart, Pers, and Athen who have their own unique champion buildings, but I like that every civ has the Arsenal (aka "Siege Workshop"). I don't like champions in the barracks. I can see using that as a special for a civ or 2 though. As you know, I really like building differentiation. Everything having its function.

Hmm, I think there is a basic roster of buildings that can be the same. Establishes a "base" gameplay for the game. And then you add diversity and uniqueness on top of that. So, barracks/stables/ranges for unit training differentiation as a "standard" for the game's civs. And then you diversify on top of that. Right now it's hard to see where to go from there if you considered Ranges and Stables as "special buildings." If you look at it that way, then yeah, you've given every civ the same "special", which makes it not special at all. Fair enough. I'm just looking at it from a broader perspective. So, if all civs have barracks/stables/ranges, for the Persians then we make the "Apadana" more interesting and unique (you upgrade it to different versions that trickle different resources after researching "Satrapy Tribute"), and maybe add the "Yakhchal" Ice Houses that give a bonus when built. The Athenians, then, we look at the Prytaneion and Gymnasium and see how we can make those more interesting. Maybe give them a "Stoa" special building as in Delenda Est. For the Carthaginians, implement the "unlocking mercenaries" concept for the Embassies. Point is, just because you give every civ an archery range doesn't mean it's the end of history.

What if we keep the 20. At 3s repeatrate, it's a little UP. Since they're UP, they don't cost metal, just food and wood. But after Crossbow Training and Repeating Crossbow, you're at 1s repreatrate, and Repeating Crossbows adds a 20 metal cost. I'll drop the Advanced and Elite upgrades for now (will revisit in next alpha with a comprehensive proposal). @BreakfastBurrito_007

Maybe the Han differentiation isn't between infantry and cavalry, but instead between melee and ranged. What do you think of that change? Still have the same number of citizen-soldier trainer buildings (barracks and range, instead of barracks and stable).

Well, the 20 pierce per second would only come after upgrades. The "Repeating Crossbows" tech could also make them noticeably more expensive (also keep in mind that while the tech greatly increases firing rate, it also reduces accuracy by 25%). But maybe we can start at a lesser attack of 16. Don't want it to be too weak at the beginning though! Because it breaks immersion for a cheap sight gag. lol

We want to be able to mass crossbows as the Han Chinese once did. To not make them OP in such masses, you have to weaken them somehow. "Trash" is just a shorthand for weakening them.

Right, for a "Repeating Crossbows" tech.

I appreciate that, but one can say that having any kind of building differentiation is "restrictive." But as long as it fits thematically, then gameplay can adjust. But we can chew over global Ranges later. We've already decided to remove the Range for this alpha.

Also, arms get tired. Firing every 1.25 seconds is possibly, but not for long.

Can you make a vector of a crossbow? View from the top pointing upward.

Nahh, we got rid of that with the Scythian Archer machine gun arms from previous alphas.

Errrr, gonna have to disagree with you on this point. Ranged units in Empires Ascendant shoot ridiculously fast, firing a projectile every 1.25 seconds. That's what the "Repeating Crossbows" tech would be for. Taking the crossbow firing rate from 3 seconds, to 2 seconds ("Crossbow Training"), and then down to 1 second with the "Repeating Crossbow" tech you see a a progression of faster firing rates as the game goes on.

I would love to just make the Range a standard building for all civs. If we can agree in principle to try to implement Ranges for A27, I am amenable to removing it for the Han for this (A26) alpha. I am not partial to the idea of making a common citizen-soldier trainable from 3 different buildings. I am partial to differentiation, which is why I advocate for the Range's (eventual) inclusion. And the reason I was pro-Stables as well. But as I said, that can wait. So, after reading this thread, I propose these changes: 1. Range Remove for this Alpha. Investigate adding it back for the next alpha. 2. Barracks Add the archer and crossbowman back. 3. Civic Center/Starting Units: A unique mix. Spearman Crossbowman Sword Cavalry 4. Infantry/Cavalry Crossbowmen Stats a mix of Javelineer, Slinger, and Archer. Attack Damage: 24 pierce Repeat Time: 3 seconds Range: 45 meters Projectile Speed: 80 m/s Spread (accuracy): 3 meters Since it is "trash", it takes +50% more XP to promote to next rank and has 40 health instead of 50, but read on: "Crossbow Training" Village Phase 200 wood, 200 metal (subject to change) Researchable from either the Barracks or Stable (it affects both Infantry and Cavalry versions) Reduces RepeatTime to 2 seconds Reduces TrainTime by -20% Unlocks Ranking Techs. These Techs make the Crossbowman less "trashy" over time: Advanced Crossbowmen Town Phase Elite Crossbowmen City Phase A new City Phase tech in the Forge "Repeating Crossbows" Reduces Repeat Time to 1 second Reduces accuracy by 25% 5. Farms 60 Wood, 30 seconds 3 gatherers Do not forget that the Han Farming techs are more powerful than the standard Farming techs! The first one is available in Village Phase! 6. I want to get rid of the Champion Cavalry Crossbowman. They're supposed to be "trash", at least initially. They still have the 3 other champions (Archer, Swordsman, Cataphract) to choose from. Can keep the templates and actors in Atlas for scenarios. 7. We need to discuss the Imperial Ministry and Ministers. But please discuss points 1-6 first. We can add these changes very quickly if we can at least agree on these points.

Well, balancing a civ isn't just about ensuring your personal build order remains successful. If others can successfully use a p1 practice range, then that's a plus for the civ.

Which units are Phase 1 is not set in stone. If there is a better combo, then we can go with that. Crossbows we should make trash/rapid response defense force or something similar with stats to match. The game's first official trash unit. Suggest stats to make this happen. Practice Range, I'm pretty sure me and a certain someone on the team wants to keep them, so we have to make them work. I propose inverting their cost from the Barracks, so they are only 100 wood and 200 stone (as opposed to the barracks at 200 stone and 100 wood). That way it is affordable with the first 300 stone on standard resource settings. Making crossbows trash and massable in Phase 1 could make the Practice Range worth it.

Explain.

No, not random maps yet. I'm focused on a lot of other things.