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Unlikely it would cause any noticeable difference with respect to <Accuracy>. The Law of Large Numbers applies because, even with a reduced rate-of-fire, you are still flinging hundreds of projectiles over the course of a typical battle (most of which hit something). That is more than a large enough sample size to push the tendency very close to the theoretical expectation. In intuitive terms, yes misses would be a bigger lost opportunity, but the projectiles that do hit balance it out by having a proportionately larger punch that almost exactly makes up for the damage that is lost. Plus, I don't think the threshold of "game breaking chaos" is nearly as sensitive as this objection makes it out to be. There are a bunch of really unpredictable factors in 0 AD's combat already: e.g. not being able to tell how many units are in an enemy formation due to the obscene model overlap, or the way that promotions can randomly change a few lucky units' stats on the fly. Despite this, I don't hear anyone complaining that the combat gameplay is unskillful.3 points
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English translation Tacitus, Germania, 39: The Semnones give themselves out to be the most ancient and renowned branch of the Suevi. Their antiquity is strongly attested by their religion. At a stated period, all the tribes of the same race assemble by their representatives in a grove consecrated by the auguries of their forefathers, and by immemorial associations of terror. Here, having publicly slaughtered a human victim, they celebrate the horrible beginning of their barbarous rite. Reverence also in other ways is paid to the grove. No one enters it except bound with a chain, as an inferior acknowledging the might of the local divinity. If he chance to fall, it is not lawful for him to be lifted up, or to rise to his feet; he must crawl out along the ground. All this superstition implies the belief that from this spot the nation took its origin, that here dwells the supreme and all-ruling deity, to whom all else is subject and obedient. The fortunate lot of the Semnones strengthens this belief; a hundred cantons are in their occupation, and the vastness of their community makes them regard themselves as the head of the Suevic race. Tacitus, Annals, 60: This language roused not only the Cherusci but the neighbouring tribes and drew to their side Inguiomerus, the uncle of Arminius, who had long been respected by the Romans. This increased Cæsar's alarm. That the war might not burst in all its fury on one point, he sent Cæcina through the Bructeri to the river Amisia with forty Roman cohorts to distract the enemy, while the cavalry was led by its commander Pedo by the territories of the Frisii. Germanicus himself put four legions on shipboard and conveyed them through the lakes, and the infantry, cavalry, and fleet met simultaneously at the river already mentioned. The Chauci, on promising aid, were associated with us in military fellowship. Lucius Stertinius was despatched by Germanicus with a flying column and routed the Bructeri as they were burning their possessions, and amid the carnage and plunder, found the eagle of the nineteenth legion which had been lost with Varus. The troops were then marched to the furthest frontier of the Bructeri, and all the country between the rivers Amisia and Luppia was ravaged, not far from the forest of Teutoburgium, where the remains of Varus and his legions were said to lie unburied. Tacitus, Annals, 61: Germanicus upon this was seized with an eager longing to pay the last honour to those soldiers and their general, while the whole army present was moved to compassion by the thought of their kinsfolk and friends, and, indeed, of the calamities of wars and the lot of mankind. Having sent on Cæcina in advance to reconnoitre the obscure forest-passes, and to raise bridges and causeways over watery swamps and treacherous plains, they visited the mournful scenes, with their horrible sights and associations. Varus's first camp with its wide circumference and the measurements of its central space clearly indicated the handiwork of three legions. Further on, the partially fallen rampart and the shallow fosse suggested the inference that it was a shattered remnant of the army which had there taken up a position. In the centre of the field were the whitening bones of men, as they had fled, or stood their ground, strewn everywhere or piled in heaps. Near, lay fragments of weapons and limbs of horses, and also human heads, prominently nailed to trunks of trees. In the adjacent groves were the barbarous altars, on which they had immolated tribunes and first-rank centurions. Some survivors of the disaster who had escaped from the battle or from captivity, described how this was the spot where the officers fell, how yonder the eagles were captured, where Varus was pierced by his first wound, where too by the stroke of his own ill-starred hand he found for himself death. They pointed out too the raised ground from which Arminius had harangued his army, the number of gibbets for the captives, the pits for the living, and how in his exultation he insulted the standards and eagles. Tacitus, Annals, 62: And so the Roman army now on the spot, six years after the disaster, in grief and anger, began to bury the bones of the three legions, not a soldier knowing whether he was interring the relics of a relative or a stranger, but looking on all as kinsfolk and of their own blood, while their wrath rose higher than ever against the foe. In raising the barrow Cæsar laid the first sod, rendering thus a most welcome honour to the dead, and sharing also in the sorrow of those present. This Tiberius did not approve, either interpreting unfavourably every act of Germanicus, or because he thought that the spectacle of the slain and unburied made the army slow to fight and more afraid of the enemy, and that a general invested with the augurate and its very ancient ceremonies ought not to have polluted himself with funeral rites. Spanish translation Tácito, Germania, 39: Los semnones dicen que son ellos los más antiguos y más nobles de los suevos, y confírmase la fe de su antigüedad con una ceremonia religiosa. En cierto tiempo del año se juntan todos los pueblos de aquella nación por sus embajadores en un bosque consagrado de sus antepasados con supersticiones y agüeros, y, matando públicamente un hombre, celebran los horribles principios de su bárbaro rito. Reverencian asimismo este bosque sagrado con otra ceremonia. Que ninguno entra en él sino atado como inferior, y mostrando y confesando en eso la potestad de Dios. Y si acaso cae, no le es lícito levantarse, y se ha de ir revolcando por el suelo. Y toda esta superstición se endereza a mostrar que allí ha tenido origen su gente; que Dios, señor de todos, habita allí, y que todas las demás cosas están sujetas y obedientes. Añade autoridad a esto la multitud de los semnones, porque habitan cien ciudades, y por su grandeza se tienen por cabeza de los suevos. Tácito, Anales, 60: Movieron estas palabras no sólo a los queruscos, pero las naciones vecinas; con que inducido a seguir su partido Inguiomaro, tío paterno de Arminio, de antigua autoridad y crédito con los romanos, pusieron al César en mayor cuidado; y así, temiendo que no le cargase encima todo el peso de la guerra, para divertir al enemigo envió a Cecina con cuarenta cohortes romanas al río Amisia, por las tierras de los brúcteros. Pedón, prefecto del campo, llevó la gente de a caballo por los confines de Frisa; él, haciendo embarcar cuatro legiones, las pasó por el lago, conque se vinieron a recoger junto a las riberas de aquel río, la infantería, caballería y armada. Los caucios, que ofrecían ayuda a los romanos, fueron recibidos en su compañía, y los brúcteros, que quemaban sus propias tierras, rotos por Lucio Estertinio, a quien Germánico envió contra ellos con gente suelta; el cual, entre la matanza y la presa, halló el águila de la legión diez y nueve, perdida con Varo. Pasó después el ejército a las últimas partes de los brúcteros habiéndose quemado el país que cierran los ríos Amisia y Lippa, no lejos del bosque de Teutobergue, donde decían hallarse todavía sin sepultura los huesos de las legiones de Varo. Tácito, Anales, 61: De aquí le vino deseo al César de hacer las funeralias a los capitanes y soldados muertos allí, movido a compasión todo el ejército, por la memoria de sus parientes y amigos, del caso mismo de la guerra y fortuna de los hombres. Fue enviado delante Cecina a reconocer la espesura de las selvas, hacer puentes y calzadas en los lugares pantanosos y atolladeros; marchan, pues, por aquellos lugares tristes y dolorosos, horribles a la vista y la memoria. Veíanse los primeros alojamientos de Varo, de gran circuito, y medidos los principios, mostraban ser de tres legiones; las trincheras después, medio arruinadas y el foso poco hondo, daban indicio de haberse retirado allí las reliquias del ejército. Veíanse por la campaña los huesos blanqueando, esparcidos o juntos, según habían huido o hecho rostro; pedazos de armas, huesos de caballos, cabezas de hombres ensartadas en los troncos, y en las selvas vecinas estaban los bárbaros altares sobre los cuales habían sido muertos los tribunos y los centuriones del primer orden. Algunos que se habían hallado en la rota, escapados de la refriega o prisión, decían: Aquí cayeron muertos los legados; allí tomaron los enemigos las águilas; acullá recibió Varo la primera herida, y allí, con su infelice mano, se atravesó el pecho; en qué tribunal hizo su parlamento Arminio; cuántas horcas mandó hacer para los cautivos; cuántas sepulturas; cómo y con cuánta soberbia hizo escarnio y burla de las banderas y de las águilas. Tácito, Anales, 62: Así el romano ejército, seis años después de aquel estrago, recogió los huesos de las tres legiones, sin poder discernir si eran de los extraños o de los suyos, cubriéndolos a todos con tierra, como si fueran de amigos o parientes, y aumentando con este acto el enojo y furor contra el enemigo. Al fabricar el túmulo, puso el César el primer césped, gratísimo para con los difuntos y compañero de los presentes en el dolor. No aprobó este hecho Tiberio, o porque daba siempre malos sentidos a las acciones de Germánico, o porque pensase que el ejército, con la vista de sus compañeros muertos y sin sepultura, se haría más lento para llegar a las manos y tendría más temor al enemigo. Fuera de que a un general ornado con el oficio de augur y de las más antiguas ceremonias divinas no le estaba bien hallarse en mortuorios.2 points
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I feel like that's getting pretty far into the weeds as far as differentiation goes. Especially when the visual differentiation is lost in the chaos of firing at will.2 points
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Indeed projectiles in Vanilla are ridiculously fast, you can't see them half the time.2 points
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Well for buildings, their fire rate could be reduced a lot and an arrow damage increase would make up for dps, essentially no net difference to gameplay. As for unit repeat times, I think we should keep the change fairly minimal for the reasons mentioned by @Philip the Swaggerless. Something on the order of: skirmishers 1.25 sec to 1.5 sec would probably be noticeable. I could raise everything (maybe except crossbows, pikes) by .25 and then adjust damage accordingly. There may or may not be a need to do this. I think we would have to try it out to really know. If we took that approach, I would be tempted to also slightly slow projectiles down, so that moving targets are not as easily hit.2 points
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A few concepts of the Grove of Fetters and maybe the Aftermath of Teutoburg Forest could help.1 point
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5000 could be okay. That's still only comparable to about 3 or so fully propped units. Static geometry with no transparency is pretty cheap to render. 1600 triangle units (including helmets, shields, weapons; cavalry are even worse) with transparent feathers and boned animations and pathing, and a dozen prop points, etc. cost a lot more resources for the game to render.1 point
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I would wager to guess most players (everyone not in the top 30 or 40) do not play the game thinking of it as a large spreadsheet meant to be deciphered in the most efficient way possible in order to maximize positive outcomes within time-frame blah blah. If a unit is effective in a certain situation, then players use that unit in that situation. Most will not care to perform deep statistical analysis on the fly (or even beforehand). The goal is to make the unit behavior intuitive to most players and we do so tweaking a dozen different stats that most players don't need to know in order to play an effective and fun game.1 point
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Why not slightly increase the attack speed without increasing the damage. To slightly nerf ranged units. By reducing the attack speed we reduce their dps and increase the overkill a little. Then we see the test and conclude. just for say : Ptol heroe reduce attack speed :p1 point
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I think the "Stand Ground" (not sure if this exact name, can't check game now) will have your units ignore tower fire, but it might not be convenient for fighting afterward so be careful.1 point
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Wasn't this a big part of the problem with a24 and no one realized how big an impact it had until it was too late? Doesn't this impact accuracy a ton? I wouldn't mess with projectile speed and would just adjust DPS/repeat times as you see fit. Changing accuracy won't change things--the problem (if it is one) is that each projectile will have a bigger impact on the units it hits (i.e., a unit may die in 3 hits instead of 4). That is unavoidable with the change you are suggesting and will introduce greater variance in results because which units get hit (and misses) will matter more (i.e., lower health units that previously would not have died may now die from a single projectile hit). This may or may not have a meaningful impact on balance--I don't know, and tests would be needed.1 point
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We just have to make an executive decision and choose a number of levels. I think lowlands/midlands/highlands is more than enough abstraction levels.1 point
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I made a similar suggestion here: except I intended for it to be a straight nerf to ranged units + a rebalance of a few other units. If I make a merge request with that i'll do some experimentation myself to avoid starting with huge imbalances. If you want to lengthen repeat times and minimize effect on balance, from my understanding this would result in even higher damage for ranged units to keep DPS. Personally not fond of such high damage values though it could always be tried.1 point
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Oooh looking very nice. How many triangles? Should probably keep it less than 3000 or so.0 points