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Nescio

0abc mod

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13 hours ago, stanislas69 said:

Revamping foundations. That's really sloooooooooooooooooooooooow. Still need to add props.

They now have consistent size 1x1 is one game tile and 2x2m in Blender

Thank you, I'm really looking forward to this, and it will also be useful for mods in other timeframes.

How large is a game tile and how does it correspond to the footprint and obstruction size specified in the templates?

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22 minutes ago, Nescio said:

How large is a game tile and how does it correspond to the footprint and obstruction size specified in the templates?

Hmm since Atlas is broken on your machine you might not be able to see it yourself so here is a screenshot.

screenshot0002.png

  • Okay so in blue are the actual game tiles. 
  • The small tiles are pathfinder resolution IIRC.
  • The white tiles are the tiles we use for the game buildings as everything is tilted by a good 45 degrees.
  • The placement isn't restricted to either of these tiles.
  • 1x1 is one blue tile, or one white tile. (Somebody messed up the bigger foundation sizes like 8x8 which is actually 10x10)
  • In obstruction and footprint size (as well as decals) 1x1 = 4x4 subtiles (eg. a 5x5 footprint should be 20 x 20 = 4 * 5 x 4 * 5)

Any other questions ? I guess all this should be in the Art Design Document at some point.

screenshot0003.png

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20 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

Hmm since Atlas is broken on your machine you might not be able to see it yourself so here is a screenshot.

screenshot0002.png

  • Okay so in blue are the actual game tiles. 
  • The small tiles are pathfinder resolution IIRC.
  • The white tiles are the tiles we use for the game buildings as everything is tilted by a good 45 degrees.
  • The placement isn't restricted to either of these tiles.
  • 1x1 is one blue tile, or one white tile. (Somebody messed up the bigger foundation sizes like 8x8 which is actually 10x10)
  • In obstruction and footprint size (as well as decals) 1x1 = 4x4 subtiles (eg. a 5x5 footprint should be 20 x 20 = 4 * 5 x 4 * 5)

Any other questions ? I guess all this should be in the Art Design Document at some point.

screenshot0003.png

"Grid subdiv" is also a useful terrain for figuring out sizes.

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Thank you for your detailed reply, it's quite helpful.

14 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

In obstruction and footprint size (as well as decals) 1x1 = 4x4 subtiles (eg. a 5x5 footprint should be 20 x 20 = 4 * 5 x 4 * 5)

Do you mean “will be” or “currently is”? E.g. `rome_civil_centre.xml`:

Spoiler

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<Entity parent="template_structure_civic_civil_centre">
  <Footprint>
    <Square width="40.0" depth="40.0"/>
    <Height>8.0</Height>
  </Footprint>
  <Health>
    <SpawnEntityOnDeath>decay|rubble/rubble_rome_cc</SpawnEntityOnDeath>
  </Health>
  <Identity>
    <Civ>rome</Civ>
    <SpecificName>Forum</SpecificName>
  </Identity>
  <Obstruction>
    <Static width="37.0" depth="37.0"/>
  </Obstruction>
  <ProductionQueue>
    <Entities datatype="tokens">
      units/{civ}_infantry_swordsman_b
      units/{civ}_infantry_javelinist_b
      units/{civ}_cavalry_spearman_b
    </Entities>
  </ProductionQueue>
  <VisualActor>
    <Actor>structures/romans/civic_centre.xml</Actor>
    <FoundationActor>structures/fndn_8x8.xml</FoundationActor>
  </VisualActor>
</Entity>

Also, two be two fndn_4x4 appear to be slightly larger than one fndn_8x8.

24 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

Any other questions ?

Yes, how do footprint and obstruction size relate? Often the footprint appear to be obstruction + 2, but in some templates they're identical (e.g. in `rome_barracks.xml` both are 22×22), in others there is a difference of 0, 1, 3, or even more. To me, this seems rather arbitrary. It would be nice if there were a guide that explained how they're determined.

By the way, do you also intend to create additional rubble sizes?

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39 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Do you mean “will be” or “currently is”? E.g. `rome_civil_centre.xml`:

Will be. It's pretty much the case until 6x6 7x7 and 8x8. In the template you gave me 40x40 is 4 * 10 + 4 * 10  so that should be a 10x10 foundation instead of a 8x8 ;)

39 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Also, two be two fndn_4x4 appear to be slightly larger than one fndn_8x8.

Yeah because some of them didn't respect conventions either. They will after I'm done, which might take some more weeks.

39 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Yes, how do footprint and obstruction size relate? Often the footprint appear to be obstruction + 2, but in some templates they're identical (e.g. in `rome_barracks.xml` both are 22×22), in others there is a difference of 0, 1, 3, or even more. To me, this seems rather arbitrary. It would be nice if there were a guide that explained how they're determined.

Well it's kinda of arbitrary, which IMHO Sucks. Obstruction and height should be defined by the mesh so the closest to the building footprint needs to be a bit bigger so that it's not under the building. A too big obstruction will mean unit using it as a dropsite or attacking it will not go near to hit it.

What could work is set the Footprint to the nearest foundation size, and keep the obstruction to the building size. Might lead to overlap though. Maybe @LordGood has some thoughts on that.

40 minutes ago, Nescio said:

By the way, do you also intend to create additional rubble sizes?

Not in the near future. You can find my todo list here. These kind of tasks kind of make me lose my motivation, because they need to be done, but they don't add a lot to the game.

 

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44 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

On the contrary, it makes the game feel complete and polished.

I agree. And, yes, I actually have noticed rubble size mismatches (and destruction textures, etc.) Every attention to detail and completeness adds value. Even little bits of polishing contribute to the overall shininess.

@stanislas69 your work is appreciated by many.

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Foundations and rubble and such might be boring to create, but they are really important and will be used by basically all factions in almost all mods in years to come.

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3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

On the contrary, it makes the game feel complete and polished. Keep trucking on, my wayward son

 

2 hours ago, WhiteTreePaladin said:

I agree. And, yes, I actually have noticed rubble size mismatches (and destruction textures, etc.) Every attention to detail and completeness adds value. Even little bits of polishing contribute to the overall shininess.

@stanislas69 your work is appreciated by many.

Thanks guys. I'm sure people would notice more the scaffoldings/buildings basis though. I extracted lordgood's to make one for walls you can see it on the edge of one of my screenshot. It's using  the scaffolding texture from the main game. Maybe I'll push further. I have too many things on the list. I also need to improve to be able to do material like Lordgood Alexandermb and now BigTiger :)

2 hours ago, Nescio said:

Foundations and rubble and such might be boring to create, but they are really important and will be used by basically all factions in almost all mods in years to come.

It's not boring it's tedious and repetitive. You can quickly mess up if you want to do things properly.

 

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34 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

Maybe I'll push further. I have too many things on the list. I also need to improve

Don't put too much pressure on yourself.

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2 hours ago, Nescio said:

Don't put too much pressure on yourself.

I know I try but I'm exactly where I have been wanting to be during all the time I was a mere contributor. So now I have to be the changes I wanted for all those years :)

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22 hours ago, stanislas69 said:

height

Yes, that's something else I've wondered about. Is it possible to display a footprint box somehow somewhere? Looking at the templates only it's hard to judge which values are carefully chosen and which are arbitrarily copied.

And another thing: the precision of footprint and obstruction values. Most heights, widths, and depths and in a '.0', although a few have different values; e.g. `pers_temple.xml` has an obstruction of 17.5×17.5 and the kennel template has 7.5×6.75. Sure, I can see there is a difference between 6.75 and simply 7, however, I'm not sure this precision is actually meaningful. Footprint and obstruction sizes are an approximation, right, so why the decimals?

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50 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Yes, that's something else I've wondered about. Is it possible to display a footprint box somehow somewhere? Looking at the templates only it's hard to judge which values are carefully chosen and which are arbitrarily copied.

 

In the Actor viewer in Atlas you can.

50 minutes ago, Nescio said:

And another thing: the precision of footprint and obstruction values. Most heights, widths, and depths and in a '.0', although a few have different values; e.g. `pers_temple.xml` has an obstruction of 17.5×17.5 and the kennel template has 7.5×6.75. Sure, I can see there is a difference between 6.75 and simply 7, however, I'm not sure this precision is actually meaningful. Footprint and obstruction sizes are an approximation, right, so why the decimals?

Well as I said obstruction define how close you can get to the building, so I guess the original author tried to get as close as possible to the building. Footprint however shouldn't be that precise. 

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23 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

In the Actor viewer in Atlas you can.

The boundary boxes you mean? However, they seem to be independent from the footprint; whether I give the template a height of 4 or 40 doesn't seem to make any difference in the actor viewer.

24 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

Well as I said obstruction define how close you can get to the building, so I guess the original author tried to get as close as possible to the building. Footprint however shouldn't be that precise. 

`sele_range.xml`:

  <Footprint>
    <Square width="26.5" depth="26.0"/>
  </Footprint>

 

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  • 6x6 footprint would be 24x24
  • 7x7 footprint would be 28x28

I guess 7x7 makes sense.

Actually you can't see the height footprint. It's something different. So height seems to only be used to define guarding and whether a projectile will hit the structure.

 

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9 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

Actually you can't see the height footprint.

Yes, that's the point: if it can't be viewed, then how can one determine which value is appropiate? Mutatis mutandis for ElevationBonus.

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2 hours ago, Nescio said:

ElevationBonus

That's different. Elevation bonus just adds more range to the tower. The fact that it isn't taken into account in the visualization is a bug :)

ret.attack[type].elevationAdaptedRange = Math.sqrt(ret.attack[type].maxRange * (2 * ret.attack[type].elevationBonus + ret.attack[type].maxRange));

 

Just had a look. It would seem that the height property of the footprint isn't used anywhere. So it's basically useless. @bb_ can you confirm ?

EDIT: I was wrong

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The footprint height value is passed by the getShape function in the footprint component. In the engine it is used in the VisualActor to set the height parameter of a CustomSelectionShape. This the fills some object retrievable by getSelectionBox and that is used in a couple of components. (f.e.in cmpPosition for the height offset of constructions)

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14 minutes ago, bb_ said:

The footprint height value is passed by the getShape function in the footprint component. In the engine it is used in the VisualActor to set the height parameter of a CustomSelectionShape. This the fills some object retrievable by getSelectionBox and that is used in a couple of components. (f.e.in cmpPosition for the height offset of constructions)

The object is used but I haven't found any use of the height property. It just sets the value.

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