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Civilization Proposal: Arabs/ Rashidun Caliphate/ Umayyads

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I support the IDEA of adding arabs as a faction. but needed to research pre Islamic arabs first like the lakhmids and the ghassanids.

 

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9 minutes ago, soshanko said:

I support the IDEA of adding arabs as a faction. but needed to research pre Islamic arabs first like the lakhmids and the ghassanids.

The Umayyads (661 - 750 AD) are being developed for Millennium AD, a mod that takes place from 500 AD to 1000 AD. The Lakhmids date from 300 AD to 602 AD, and the Ghassanids date from 220 AD to 638 AD, so for both of them, the majority of their history falls outside of the timeframe. Their territorial extent and interconnectedness are also very limited.

With only 4 playable factions to date, it's important to focus on the most powerful states of the time first. Ghassanids were a Byzantine client state, and the Lakhmids were often a Sassanid client state. So Byzantines and Sassanids are more important, and Sassanids haven't been developed yet. In terms of territorial extent and interconnectedness, it's not even a competition. The Umayyad Caliphate was one of the largest and most powerful empires of it's day.

There are a number of other early medieval states that would also be more relevant before the Lakhmids and Ghassanids. For example:

  • Abbasid Caliphate 
  • Khazar Khaganate 
  • Avar Khaganate 
  • Turkic Khaganate
  • Uyghur Khaganate
  • Chinese Tang Dynasty
  • Tibetan Empire
  • Asuka and Heian periods of Japan
  • Chola Dynasty 
  • Pallava Dynasty 
  • Aksumite Empire
  • Kingdom of Makuria
  • Ghana Empire
  • Great Moravia
  • Emirate of Cordoba
  • Lombards 

To name a few.

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I am talking about an combined effort to make the Arabian faction. So if the kingdom of Sheba, ghassanids, lakhmids, yemenise, ghatafan, kuraish and many more could be combined to represent the Arabian faction, that can be a true approach to the Arabian faction. And also I think the game has kept religion out of the main focus mainly the religions of this date. So it might be good if the Arabian faction cover the entirety of the Arabian peninsula. just this is the point. The book called seeratun-nabi-ibn-hashim or books like this that talks about the pre-Islamic time period can be a good resource for a greater research. thanks.

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7 minutes ago, soshanko said:

I am talking about an combined effort to make the Arabian faction. So if the kingdom of Sheba, ghassanids, lakhmids, yemenise, ghatafan, kuraish and many more could be combined to represent the Arabian faction, that can be a true approach to the Arabian faction. And also I think the game has kept religion out of the main focus mainly the religions of this date. So it might be good if the Arabian faction cover the entirety of the Arabian peninsula. just this is the point. The book called seeratun-nabi-ibn-hashim or books like this that talks about the pre-Islamic time period can be a good resource for a greater research. thanks. 

The problem is that this logic should be applied to others factions as well. For example, the Jin dynasty, the Sui dynasty and the Tang dynasty in one faction for the Chineses.

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yeah logic should be applied. But there is a difference if the dynasties are totally different as ethnicity . I think most of the Arabs are almost from the same ethnicity. like kahtani and ismailiah.  these two sub linage is also reative frome very beginning of them. but for the Chinese these dynasties are almost totally different. as the jins were almost the people of the korea or north china. I would say China have many different faction on its area. But the Arabs are only two linage as I mentioned before and they are relative from very early period. So all different clans and kingdoms of Arabs can be presented as a Single nation. sorry for the edit. Thanks.

 

 

Edited by soshanko

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I think ethnicity in the Middle East including the Arabian peninsula is actually incredibly complex. I'm personally not in favor of ignoring political realities to create a single muddled up faction like the "saracens" in AoE, based solely on the notion of shared ethnicity. The Umayyads were a vast and multi-ethnic state that incorporated Arab, Persian and Byzantine influences, as well as everything in between, and far beyond. I'm in favor of depicting an actual state that really existed, rather than separating a "single" ethnicity from that state, stripping it of all non Arab elements, of which there are many, and then present it as a historical faction, which it wouldn't be... It doesn't make sense to me. It made sense in vanilla for the Gauls because of a lack political cohesion, and the Iberians because of a lack of references. Neither of these things are an issue with the Umayyads. 

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I actually talked about Arabs not about Umayyad empire. I am talking about a faction or a nation not about empires that included so many nations it could occupy. may be that's the point. thanks. but you are free to go as you want.

Edited by soshanko

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51 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

It made sense in vanilla for the Gauls because of a lack political cohesion, and the Iberians because of a lack of references.

It made sense also because the Gauls share the same archeological culture, the same language and had a very connected network of settlements sharing the same evolution during a long time period. The same for the Iberians. Regional specificities are minor and not temporally constant, in contrary to the Greeks.

2 hours ago, soshanko said:

yeah logic should be applied. But there is a difference if the dynasties are totally different as ethnicity . I think most of the Arabs are almost from the same ethnicity. like kahtani and ismailiahthese two sub linage is also reative frome very beginning of them. but for the Chinese these dynasties are almost totally different. as the jins were almost the people of the korea or north china. I would say China have many different faction on its area. But the Arabs are only two linage as I mentioned before and they are relative from very early period. So all different clans and kingdoms of Arabs can be presented as a Single nation. sorry for the edit. Thanks. 

It means an ethnic centered mod which is problematic for the Germanic factions where the North-West Germanic languages didn't splitted before the third century AD and the West Germanic languages didn't splitted before the sixth century AD. Moreover their ethnicities are well mixed and shared together by huge confederacy system that appeared during their history like the Suebi/Suevi, the Marcomanni, the Alemanni and the Franks. Plus the Merovingian and the Carolingian dynasties are new levels of complexities from an ethnological perspective.

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2 hours ago, soshanko said:

I actually talked about Arabs not about Umayyad empire. I am talking about a faction or a nation not about empires that included so many nations it could occupy. may be that's the point. thanks. but you are free to go as you want.

No, because we haven't enough sources to fill a cohorent faction, nor heroes, nor wonders... May be Petra or  Palmyra or Saba... But Arabs with that name is like suggest Pre Columbian culture in a single faction. Unless you help to provide us many visual material.

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36 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

No, because we haven't enough sources to fill a cohorent faction, nor heroes, nor wonders... May be Petra or  Palmyra or Saba... But Arabs with that name is like suggest Pre Columbian culture in a single faction. Unless you help to provide us many visual material.

Petra and the Nabataeans are probably better suited for the vanilla or for Delenda Est.

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5 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

No, because we haven't enough sources to fill a cohorent faction, nor heroes, nor wonders... May be Petra or  Palmyra or Saba... But Arabs with that name is like suggest Pre Columbian culture in a single faction. Unless you help to provide us many visual material. 

I think reading is the most effective way to know he Arabs. I Quoted a book name (seerat-un-nabi-ibn-hisham). And its not the only book. There are more. Also Arabs were very conscious about their linage so we can find a overall overview on this Faction. I also can propose an Idea of knowing through a scholar who is well known about the clans and tribes of Arabian peninsula. 

And for visual aspect we can take ideas from films that were set on that timeline. Thanks

 

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7 hours ago, Genava55 said:

It means an ethnic centered mod which is problematic for the Germanic factions where the North-West Germanic languages didn't splitted before the third century AD and the West Germanic languages didn't splitted before the sixth century AD. Moreover their ethnicities are well mixed and shared together by huge confederacy system that appeared during their history like the Suebi/Suevi, the Marcomanni, the Alemanni and the Franks. Plus the Merovingian and the Carolingian dynasties are new levels of complexities from an ethnological perspective.

As every nation have not reached todays position with the same road, We need separate effort for describing each faction. So different ideas should be implemented for different faction. It also makes each faction unique and different. tnx.

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59 minutes ago, soshanko said:

I think reading is the most effective way to know he Arabs. I Quoted a book name (seerat-un-nabi-ibn-hisham). And its not the only book. There are more. Also Arabs were very conscious about their linage so we can find a overall overview on this Faction. I also can propose an Idea of knowing through a scholar who is well known about the clans and tribes of Arabian peninsula. 

And for visual aspect we can take ideas from films that were set on that timeline. Thanks

 

Share here(forum) but not this topic. This is for 500-1000 A.D time frame.

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I thought I was talking about a faction for the main game. sorry. but I can also help with caliphates as I complete my B.S.S on Islamic history. Thanks.

 

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26 minutes ago, soshanko said:

I thought I was talking about a faction for the main game. sorry. but I can also help with caliphates as I complete my B.S.S on Islamic history. Thanks.

 

we are hard to add for main game, for now but here my friend @Sundiata bring us Kushites when we don't plan add new for faction for a while. He can help you to bring the faction tonTerra magna, Kushites started in Terra magna.

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From what I have read in the Osprey articles, majority of the Arab fleet was composed of the Byzantine ships that was captured in the former Byzantine occupied Egypt. Maybe we could just re-use the Byzantine ships that you previously modeled.

It will be up to you though, if you want to model those awesome ships and boats. :)

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2 hours ago, wackyserious said:

From what I have read in the Osprey articles, majority of the Arab fleet was composed of the Byzantine ships that was captured in the former Byzantine occupied Egypt. Maybe we could just re-use the Byzantine ships that you previously modeled.

It will be up to you though, if you want to model those awesome ships and boats. :)

Very common from non sailor peoples, like Persian, Romans...

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