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Hopefully SPI can have a look into this next week.

To be fair, I actually think we should remove some maps since some are rather poor quality, look bad, or aren't that playable anyway (snowflake searocks). Also, some new random maps are effectively better versions of old ones. It does clutter up the list and makes random selection of random maps a bit hit or miss. Sometimes I want to find out what kind of map I'm playing on through exploration, so I won't look at the loading screen to avoid seeing the map name. Often enough to be annoying, I end up on a lower quality one (or a map lacking metal/stone, etc.) and don't realize this until I've explored a bit. I don't mind a lot of maps, but we should probably clean up the list more often than we do. (This is even more true of our scenarios.) If maps like snowflake searocks are really desired, then they should belong in a separate category.

I have all my models on one workspace, empties get numbered and sometimes i forget to rename them before export. That's likely not the only one, ill go through them again to be sure

Looks unrealistic yes, but since why would snowflake searocks be unplayable? Had fun matches there I wouldn't want to miss. > some new random maps are effectively better versions of old ones Which ones? Unknown, Unknown Land and Unknown Nomad are the exact same thing and I have a patch to merge them. They should be merged to a single map with a user option on wheather to allow naval. Nomad should and not unlikely will become possible to play on every map. Some of the map generations of Unknown are similar to maps. For example the Central Sea variant can be similar to Corinthian Isthmus. But it's different (lobby players called it Unknown Isthmus), as the middle passage is much bigger and the map uses the random biome system, whereas Corinthian Isthmus always looks the same. There are dozens of players who play thousands of matches per year and probably hundreds that play hundreds of matches per year. So until we have some map downloader that can be used by highly drunken people without security issues, we should allow players to use any variation they want. If we want to delete a random map script, go for new_rms_test. If we're discussing redundant maps - we have many Skirmish/Scenario maps that are present as random maps too - Sahel, Corsica & Sardinia, Corinthian Isthmus, probably few more. If we can only keep one type of them, then we should use the random map script variant, so that the user can chose the number of players, mapsize, victory condition and so forth and possibly implement parts in the random map script that the skirmish maps did better. I really don't like this thread xd

Here's a sneak peek of the next faction getting ported over to 0AD: the Gorons. Stay tuned for their full roster of units. It seems I didn't take a peek in that file.

Yeah, Hannibal was kind enough to ask me wether it was ok with me, and asked me some follow-up questions to fill some gaps/corrections for the civ. I didn't see a problem with the faction being present in different mods. Every mod is different by definition. I look forward to Terra Magna for very different reason than why Vox Populi is so interesting. @LordGood weren't you the original source of the leak? @wowgetoffyourcellphone also repeatedly said that people could use his developments in DE for their own mods. Anyway, the main reason I like the civ in different mods is it's the best way to test it out. Mistakes are easily found and corrected, and what still needs doing also becomes a lot more clear.

Today, I tested the latest SVN20275, and when I loaded the saved game, an error message appeared: ERROR: Failed to find matching prop point called "garrisoned" in model "art/meshes/structural/spart_temple.dae" for actor "temple"

I asked @Sundiata prior to any actions (supposedly the "head" of the Kushites mod) and he had no objections, was happy to have it added. So if it's leaked by the main guy then it's all fine Also since Vox Populi comes with other welcome changes I think it'll be more frequently played there. Personally I didn't follow this thread at all due to having no time so I'd not make assumptions

lol I've been spoiled by GLSL shaders, the strong simple shapes have nice synergy with the AO and normal maps. Fixing the footprint should be easy enough

> I certainly won't waste dozens of hours to create another base game mod that noone plays. Just directional damage by itself will cost many weeks if not months.

I certainly won't waste dozens of hours to create another base game mod that noone plays. It was meant to actually make the dev team think of their concept, and how they're doing the exact opposite of the design document of 0 AD. And this hasn't changed in half a year. Again. I said I would start working more in practise if I become staff. But since it didn't happen I didn't contribute either. Unfortunately - but I have other projects that are more beneficial to spend my time on. I said that I offer to make a proper concept myself as a part of the core team OR someone else needs to do it. From what I've seen there are a couple of ideas going on, but apart from that nothing significantly happened. So it's neither me doing it nor someone else, leading the game's progress ad absurdum once again for half a year. You can't tell me that someone would not have been able to make a gameplay concept in such a long time. Even if not working on it full time. I ask you something: Why do ppl play singleplayer? Usually to either be entertained with an interesting story or somewhat "open world" style stuff that allows them to make the game the way they want. At least that's what expect from single player games - either to be entertained like from a movie or with interesting new experiences, or to relax after a long day of work. 0 AD has no interesting stories, and only a pretty limited "open world" character. At least unless people mod it for their personal needs (which again only a very small amount of people is willing to learn or to do). So, it's not even an option at this point, because there is no dedicated content that justifies a custom multiplayer/singleplayer split verison of 0 AD. I'm not unhappy. I'm just saying that the way things are done here are the opposite of how it should work and that the game cannot be completed or even be remotely successful as a game because it's missing almost every integral part that makes a game worth playing. It's just a playable tech demo with pretty graphics. Not a game. And it has not enough content for dedicated singleplayers, and not nearly enough gameplay depth in multiplayer. Which disqualifies it for both audiences. Yes, common ground is important. But it's more important to get a base that can be agreed about. This is absolutely necessary at some point. But this point has not even come yet. Also you like mods - well so do I. But guess what? Not everyone likes mods. And furthermore everything that is a mod is usually not put on the same level as the base game. I.E. competitive gaming always revolves around the basic game. Look at Hannibal_Barca - he plays 0 AD with competition in mind. He doesn't play DE mod or any other one, he plays the basic game. It's always like this. If you buy a car you need to make sure which type of vehicle you want before you actually start discussing about rim sizes, tyres, color etc. What currently is happening is that you have a car without tyres and only a partly functional engine/transmission, and no interior except for seats. But at the same time you tell people "yeah you can choose your car's colour, lightbeams and interior by modding it, so go have fun with it! The car itself is great already". This has not happened yet and is pretty urgent. If there would be at least a SOMEWHAT plan how the game should end up a lot of issues would fix themselves.

Although I didn't read everything in this thread, the last three posts were interesting enough for me to jump into this discussion. As far as I understand it, DE had incorporated the Kushites faction, VP has it, and now you intend to add it to TM as well. From my point of view this is both inefficient (the same work has to be done thrice) and undesirable (mods tend to diverge over time, so it will result in three slightly different Kushite factions). Besides, three copies of mostly the same files is costly in terms of download time and file size on disk. Wouldn't it be better to have a single “Kushites” mod, which could then be loaded by other mods? And mutatis mutandis for other new civilizations? A “one faction, one mod” principle would also make it easier to incorporate new factions in the default 0 A.D. distribution, provided they are complete and qualitively at least as good as the current twelve factions.

@elexis Shieldwolf23's and my own ideas are just that. Possible ideas/visions for the future of 0AD. Neither of us expect them to be implemented. That's not how it was supposed to come over at least. They were just examples. I won't argue the content of your reply, but I'm sure you knew shieldwolf knows that 0AD is open-source and he can create his own game if he likes. Neither of us are coding-wizards like you, and I'm sure you know that as well. This comment makes me sad, and is exactly the type of comment you don't want to see from your fans/player base. @WhiteTreePaladin About the lower quality maps thing, I also think it's an issue. They don't all need to be removed. The ones that can be updated should be updated using the best maps as a benchmark. I also think those totally unrealistic/unnatural looking maps should preferably be moved to a "fantasy map" section in my opinion.

@balduin: personally I don't like it that one dev develops/modifies the civ to his own taste (see the civ traits list he listed f.e.) (tbh I find it a bit weird too that he uses new civs to promote a gameplay mod (cause that is what Vox Populi)). So if you'd ask me, I would like to continue the development like we did before

@shieldwolf23 that's the spirit.

@elexis, @Grugnas - sorry if there is a misunderstanding of what I posted earlier. What I was saying was only a reply on @Sundiata's vision. What I said, if you can re-read, is that THAT is the FUTURE. That vision is not important - it may in all probability not happen; meeting with each other is I believe more important as of this stage. I proposed a meeting of like-minded individuals, modders and the core team alike, to discuss what the game would rather look as of the present. Mods have given us glimpses, the community has given suggestions both outrageous and not. I was hoping for you guys to maybe consider talking to each other and having a discussion, with the end result of a clear game design to be followed by all. Sorry if by trying to propose that same thing, you'd rather push me to create my own mod. That is not my intention, and I am far from qualified to make something technical. I guess back to being a lurker then, me useless inconsiderate, good for nothing wolf.

I'm Not gonna be hypocritical with that guy. He is rude, but may be the image is hard for some soft eyes. He is in this way unpolite, so I'm the same way. But they have some interesting ideas. And creates the design very professional.

That can cause misunderstandings, please try to avoid this kind of post

Only the copyright issues can be a big weakness. I've seen the critics expressing their disagreements for abandoning the Total War engine. But a fraction of them held faith that the game would still be good, and with the release... they agree that the pros have outweighed the cons. Hyrule Conquest is a mod that really sticks out like a sore thumb... so much so that it sadly overshadows Pyrogenesis itself.

This the help of @DarcReaver. The sad part is no one of these lines are a code.

wow's frustrations were accumulated throughout time. If you manage to search enough of his comments, you'll see why. But I guess his fundamental mistake trying to base his development cycle on the SVN; chasing the fastest moving target. He's had success in doing it, though. But he just blew the lid because of the changes that he sees as too arbitrary to incorporated in his own Mod. I'm also pumped about the fact that his DE was doing excellently. Him abandoning his project personally hurts me big time, but I think he's wrong if he thinks that the game won't improve without him around. Until he calms down and starts working again, I'll just have to rely on other Mods.

I actually liked Delenda Est! It seemed to me that the level of added detail and complexity to the vanilla civs, as well as the brand-new civs he created, showed that @wowgetoffyourcellphone had really done his research.

@WhiteTreePaladin why not creating a mod which disables/removes all the maps you don't like?

Just to get one thing clear at the very beginning. 0 A.D. is a free and open source game. Which means it is all about choices. The choices you, I and all of us have. The list of choices starts with you can play 0 A.D. or you don't. This is what you can do with any game regardless if it is free or not. However, free and open source means you can participate and contribute to 0 A.D. There are many ways to contribute. But it also means if you are as unhappy as @DarcReaver then make a non-hostile fork. Find a new team and name for your project to work on your vision of the game. However, people also have to realize that there is a difference between the game engine Pyrogensis and the visible game. Pyrogensis is the part of 0 A.D. which several developers actually contribute to. The engine is responsible for very basic things like rendering object, loading a unit definition from a file, the engine is responsible for calculating the path a unit will take the engine is also responsible to provide a mechanism to play online (multiplayer). This is the part most people are actually happy about. 0 A.D. is basically a mod running on top of Pyrogenesis. However, people are downloading normally both when they download 0 A.D. What the online community really complains about is the balance changes to the 0 A.D., the mod running on top of Pyrogenesis. But they could create a mod which incorporates all there wishes, there is no need to have two versions of Pyrogenesis. Regarding the other complains. Finding a common ground between some of the visions and ideas of people is impossible. But people can create mods, which incorporates there vision or there idea on how the game should be. 0 A.D. can be modified. For me it is okay to have many different balance mods. Then I can choose the one I like the most. However, sometimes I like one mod for several reasons and don't like other aspects of the same mod. Then again another mod focuses on different aspects. I love to have several mods. Mods which try new things or implement things differently. All mods have one thing in common, at the end of the day, I as a player have choices and this is important too me. The main concern of @wowgetoffyourcellphone was that he has to invest time and efforts in adapting to the changes made to the 0 A.D. mod, because he bases his mod on the 0 A.D. mod and not directly on the engine. The question for me is should the Pyrogenesis engine and the 0 A.D. mod be more decoupled? And should there be a discussion about changes to the 0 A.D. mod, especially if they could break dependent mods?

I'd prefer the core team to focus on optimization, or the things that they deem very important. We already have Mods that encourage balancing, and those who support them might even get into the core game. We still have the total conversion Delenda Est, and the Pro-game-balance Mod Monkey Wrench. But my current favorite is Vox Populi, mainly because it's the closest thing to DE along with some mechanics I really like (animals running away, for example). I'm quite optimistic about it, actually: Advanced Players are happy with Monkey Wrench Singleplayers are happy with the core game

Other thing many don't have account. The actual industry.

Thanks for your interest in the game. 0 A.D. and the pyrogenesis engine is a free & open source project. This means that you can create an entirely new game you envision, see GettingStarted. Furthermore, everyone can use our forums to a plan a new game based on the Pyrogenesis engine here: https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/forum/18-game-modification/ If you do not want to base your new game on the Pyrogenesis engine, then it is not related to the project and should be planned on a project related webpage. You will need a team of developers and artists who share interest in the game you desire and are willing to spend years building it. So either your plan is universally compelling or you have several hundred thousand of dollars to hire that team. If we like your contribution, if it's technically compatible with 0 A.D. and if there isn't any copyright infingement of the art files in your mod, we might use it for 0 A.D. too. Until then we are going to cooperate with people who are capable of creating files that implement features and designing features in a way that fits to the project. Unless you hire us, we are not liable to create a different game for each player on the forums and the lobby that thinks that he knows better.

@balduin Yeah, they were known to use poisoned arrows. It could be one of the ranged techs... @Lion.Kanzen The crown on the right looks like the crown sometimes worn by the winged goddess Isis. Golden wings of a vulture. Princesses or Queens could possibly wear it in emulation of the Goddess. Isis in a relief from Meroe: Notice the winged serpent symbol on top. This is one of the symbols on the Egyptian shield-placeholders in Kush. A good use of existing placeholders, it seems

As far as the casual and competitive game-modes goes, it's just an idea to help relieve the unsolvable difference of interest regarding play styles. Some people want an "updated AoE", streamlined and straightforward. This could be 0AD classic. Other people are much more ambitious in what they want. As @shieldwolf23 said, a mix between a (simplified) city-managment and RTS. 0AD is the best platform to develop such an idea. Imagine a Real Time Total War with elements of Anno in 0AD. Big cities and epic battles on giant maps, and it's not turn-based, but real time... That's revolutionary. It's basically what "everybody" wants, but hasn't been achieved by any commercial developer yet, although attempts have been made. 0AD casual mode can strive toward realising this dream, of the ultimate RTS/Strategy/management game. 0AD, The Birth of Civilisations, or something like that... Looking at the improvements to the game over the past few years, I'm sure that within a year 0AD will be able to handle 1000 moving units, greatly expanding the potential for epic gameplay, and this could/should be utilised. I understand that these ideas are so far away from the original concept or the current direction, that it makes some people uncomfortable, so that's why the need for 0AD Classic. These don't need to be competing ideas. Anyway, these things are definitely not the most important topics at the moment, there are much more pressing concerns regarding the next release, that need to be discussed in a more official framework. There have been many suggestions/requests from many random players on this forum the past months/year. Many of them are repetitive. The same kind of requests keep turning up, for example the capture vs destroy default issue. At least the most popular/recurring requests and suggestions need to be identified and discussed more in depth, and agreed upon resolution/solutions need to be formulated publicly by the development team in response.

@shieldwolf23, my friend. What you are asking for is a totally separate game which would require much more time than what it already requires. I am sure that offline players will be more than satisfied with campaigns implementation ( whenever they will come ) because they reproduce historically accurate events with perhaps already built cities in games where hopefully quests will be introduced: build N temples trade X amount of resources in Y minutes build a Wonder before the enemy get TOT population. Which is different from having something like a Tribute resources per house, a totally new talent tree and something that could somehow also affect multiplayer game and that perhaps make no sense atm. But yes, something risk-like with Simulated battle in random generated maps and an economy system oriented to upgrade your army ( maybe civilization has something like that? i never played it ) mode would be also fun. ( still this sounds like a total different game too )

I prefer no take side, and wait. Only I have many phrases in my mind(things you say), from things these weren't possible and to days are realities.

@Sundiata The sound of the pyramids sounds metallic, whereas the background sound and the other sounds are kind of chill. The sound does not fit the atmosphere. Every time I clicked on a pyramid, I thought I am getting attacked and started looking around the map. I like "Apedemak's War Elephants" as a name for the Kushite war elephants. As far as I know the Celts (Gauls, Iberians or Britons) have a couple of embassies. Where you can recruit 'foreign' units. I think it would be nice to have cheap mercs instead of having a ton of units which can be recruited from the barracks. I think it is worth a try, especially because Vox Populli is a mod and not the main game. I understand the path finding issue. I like the idea of having "narrow" gates which do not allow siege weapons to pass. However, kushite war elephants should be able to pass. The Kushite war elephants have similar dimensions like war chariots of other fractions. But I think, the Kushite war elephants are based on the Ptolemaic war elephant model. Obviously, those are too big to go through a "narrow" gate. The hero Natasan should not be able to pass through the "narrow" gate. In my opinion there should not be a "regular" gate. Yes, the outpost is the same for every civ and that is okay for most civ's. However, I think the Kushites would have build something different, like a high mud brick tower or something like that. @Sundiata what do you think of an earlier version of a modern Suandese minaret. I found a picture from a mosque in Khartoum: Farouk's Mosque . The minaret of the mosque looks more African/Kushite then Arabic. Maybe you have a better idea.

Is a waste of time...

As long as single players don't care about balancing, all I can tell you is that a proper diversifying of the civs requires time and testing ( thing that actually lacks in svn ) with no need to add new redundant content with just more exotic actors ( me in first line have been really impressed by Kushite actors and would like to see them in main version [ e.g. i don't know why ptol nubian archers changed skin color from black to white ]) . Probably the first step would be to let technologies occupy the mid row of the production queue panel because pair techs are a couple only ( 1 actually ) in order to give modders more room for more technologies in already existing buildings. Everyone wants more contents. AI simply emulate a human player, thus the rules that apply to single player is a natural consequence of a proper tested working "formula" in online matches. The main concerns about balancing is that monotone strategies kill the fun and totally obscure already existing stuff like palisades, walls and towers that may have a more relevant role in any level of skill. Beyond the fancy effect, having more buildings/units/technologies available during the game would make the games ( intended like diversity between different matches ) more fun and would let not 1, new civ, but 10 already existing civs benefit from it. So, why is there a need to add more fancy stuff if the one already implemented doesn't properly work and that may even have counter-productive effects? Basically most of the already existing civs are just "fancy looking" because they are bound to the phase 3 convenient rush and to the "common for all" build order. There isn't any official mod ( made of fact i started my own balance mod which is already difficult to try online ), just fan mods due the flexibility of the engine. Delenda Est is an interesting mod and, sadly, a huge lose for eye-candy seeker players, but arguing on a flame thread because of a modify decision in an alpha stage game is quite time wasting if not useless because someone should foresee changes, especially if those kind of changes aren't new paper.

easy, build the temples back to back to back and then upgrade them accordingly ta-da whole model

The kingdom of Kush: NEWS! Vox Populi (mod) makes an updated and playable version of the Kushites available! After Delenda Est(download here), a second mod, Vox Populi (by @Hannibal_Barca) , has now featured the Kingdom of Kush as a playable faction, debuting many new models by @LordGood, replacing all Ptolemaic (building) placeholders, and adding many new units created by @wowgetoffyourcellphone, with additions like new weapons and hairstyles by @stanislas69. About Vox Populi: "This mod tries to address the main "weaknesses" of the current release: it aims to balance "op/up" units, it adjusts technologies and introduces some variety along the way As the name implies (Vox Populi = Voice of the People) , this mod is open to all suggestions of the 0 A.D. community and there is a high chance that if several "known" players agree on a suggestion, it could be added in here." Download here: https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/22869-vox-populi-the-ultimate-balance-mod/ Special thanks to everybody involved in the development of this faction so far. Progress over the last few months has been considerable, largely due to the efforts of LordGood and Wowgetoffyourcellphone, and now Hannibal_Barca has given us the distinct pleasure of trying out all the new goodies for ourselves, in-game, along with many new balance considerations, aimed at improving gameplay. Thank you all! Screenshots: