Why mercenary cavalry is OP?

[Nobbi]

All know cavalry (CAV) mercenaries (MERC) in a25 are over powered (OP). But how is that? I felt like people didn't get to the point why this is so and far more important for balancing you would need some quantity to do the right adjustment. However, this comment is not the guide to perfect balancing of MERC CAV it just shall give the numbers to do a good balancing. Additionally, it compares MERC INF with MERC CAV which was not done so far, but I really believe its necessary.

My first simplest thought was, MERC infantry (INF) cost 60 metal (ME) and in relation to the costs of citizen soldiers (CS) MERC CAV should cost 90 ME due to the 1.5 higher total resource cost of CS CAV. But this assumption is to simple and does not reflect the time needed to gather resources (RES).

I made some assumptions and simplifications. Men gather non food RES and women just food. Walking time is not considered. Also rank two of MERC is not considered. Upgrades are considered as all researched in one phase. If you think about it, all assumptions and simplifications cheat for the MERC. Most player will have women gathering wood, walking time for wood is increasing over time compared to ME mines and having upgrades just for ME is cheaper then getting upgrades for 3 RES.

I calculated the time needed to gather the resources to make a unit in total RES gathering time (TRGT) and compared it to the CS counterpart.

• INF MERC (60 ME, here I realized I was a bit lazy this is just valid for skirmisher INF)

0 upgrades: 72.0 % of time is needed to gather the RES for a INF MERC skirmisher compared to a CS skirmisher

P1: 70.2 %

P2: 68.5 %

P3: 66.8 %

• CAV MERC (80 ME, here for speer/javalineer CAV, sword CAV is a little bit cheaper, see attached file)

0 upgrades:  60.0 %

P1: 56.8 %

P2: 55.1 %

P3: 53.4 %

• Findings
  • MERC have less total RES cost which results in lower TRGT, so they give a time advantage (obviously :D)
  • RES gathering time for MERC decreases stronger with more upgrades, this is due to different strength in upgrades, food upgrades add less advantage, making MERC even more efficient with more upgrades
  • MER CAV has a lower TRGT than MERC INF and with all other advantages (mobility, attack strength, HP) making them much better than MERC INF, probably the reason why MERC INF spam could not be seen in a25
• Price for CAV MERC adjusted to the same time discount as for MERC INF
  • Speer/JAV CAV: 96 ME
  • Sword CAV: 99 ME

This is just an proposal but it would kill 2 birds with one stone. It makes CAV MERC less OP and adjusts the TRGT of MERC CAV to that of MERC INF.

I know there are also other ways to re-balance MERC. But as I wrote there are simplifications and assumptions favoring the MERC and therefore I think 90 ME for CAV MERC is still too low. I think the already elsewhere recommended 95 ME is a good starting point and I think there was even a mod were people tried this adjustment and were satisfied.

I also might be wrong about that price. There are also other things to consider like the limited ME on map or in range of the CC, players making MERC also have a certain risk to get raided early on and CIVs more or less surely making MERC and being predictable therefore. But if you stay for 90 ME and it results in being balanced please make INF MERC also cheaper.

a25 - OP MERC.ods

Edited April 27, 2022 by Nobbi

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Currently, the nerfs in a26 are: 90 metal cost and slower rank up time. I think these nerfs may be enough since it will take more time for merc cav to reach the dreaded rank 3.

One big difference between inf mercs and cav mercs is that inf mercs are more effected by the inability to gather resources. I think this could justify the 95 metal cost, but we should test rc1 first before we make this change. You have to consider other changes such as a possible spear cav buff ( @LetswaveaBook plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz make a new patch with +1 hack and 2x multiplier).

[chrstgtr]

58 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

You have to consider other changes such as a possible spear cav buff ( @LetswaveaBook plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz make a new patch with +1 hack and 2x multiplier).

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4506
 

people just can’t agree. If nothing else, I think the 2x multiplier should be implemented since there is agreement in that 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

2 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

people just can’t agree. If nothing else, I think the 2x multiplier should be implemented since there is agreement in that 

@LetswaveaBook said a new one would be made with those changes, but I haven't seen it yet. Honestly, I would be happy with the minimum, which is just the multiplier increase almost everyone seems to agree on that.

I think spear cav should be a little more armored than swordcav, but this could be decided later.

[Yekaterina]

If you look at pure stats, infantry mercs are no less OP than cavalry mercs. However, no-one ever complains about them, simply because it's easy to dodge them, then lure them into a trap due to the slow speed of infantry. The lower survivability of infantry and their slow speed nerf them, making very OP units defeatable. 

Consider Macedonian silver shield units and champion pikemen. They are just as deadly as the champion cavalry in close range, yet no-one notices them, simply because you are never forced into a melee fight with them: free draw a circle of ranged units around them, then dance with your melee. This will eventually wear out the champion units without costing a single soldier of yours. You can't avoid any cavalry unit using this technique, especially against the Carthaginians (lightening general hero). 

So an effective nerf would be slowing down these mercenary sword cavalry so that they cannot escape spear cavalry or javlin cavalry. 

 

 

[LetswaveaBook]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

@LetswaveaBook said a new one would be made with those changes, but I haven't seen it yet.

*could be made

If the multiplier for CS spear cav is boosted to 2, should that also happen for the champion spear cavalry? Furthermore I think the hack armor could be nice as I deem spear cavalry to weak against infantry swordsmen.

Edited April 27, 2022 by LetswaveaBook

[real_tabasco_sauce]

12 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

should that also happen for the champion spear cavalry

yes but not armor boost. Thoughts @chrstgtr @BreakfastBurrito_007, other balancers?

[chrstgtr]

29 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

*could be made

If the multiplier for CS spear cav is boosted to 2, should that also happen for the champion spear cavalry? Furthermore I think the hack armor could be nice as I deem spear cavalry to weak against infantry swordsmen.

Agree on all

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@Sevda perhaps giving melee inf more speed would be nice, but it could also be problematic.

I don't think this issue would be solved well without a nicely thought out charging mechanic.

I also don't think champion spearcav need any extra armor if that is what we were talking about. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

You guys agree on +1 hack armor only for CS spearcav and not champs?

[chrstgtr]

3 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

You guys agree on +1 hack armor only for CS spearcav and not champs?

I’d prefer it only be CS. I have concerns that that’ll make champ spear cav OP, especially because there is a tech for champ spear cav with Sele and Persia. 

[Nobbi]

7 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Currently, the nerfs in a26 are: 90 metal cost and slower rank up time. I think these nerfs may be enough since it will take more time for merc cav to reach the dreaded rank 3.

One big difference between inf mercs and cav mercs is that inf mercs are more effected by the inability to gather resources. I think this could justify the 95 metal cost, but we should test rc1 first before we make this change. You have to consider other changes such as a possible spear cav buff ( @LetswaveaBook plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz make a new patch with +1 hack and 2x multiplier).

I am not satisfied with this change. As I wrote before I think 95 ME cost would do fine. Changing other stats is a balance option but it might have side effects. Now MERC CAV and CS CAV is different ... When people abuse your topic for other content it looks like they did not understand you...

[Lion.Kanzen]

31 minutes ago, Nobbi said:

When people abuse your topic for other content it looks like they did not understand you...

you can ask off topic rule from moderation, this way split the topic.

[Player of 0AD]

Sorry for writing off topic.

But all spearcav needs +1 hack and pierce armor, also the champs. Currently spearcav champs are a much smaller thread than swordcav champs and javcav champs, even the pers / sele ones.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

2 hours ago, Nobbi said:

When people abuse your topic for other content it looks like they did not understand you...

???????????????????????????????????????????

I am sorry you feel ignored, but the spear cav buff discussion is quite relevant to the topic at hand. The fact of the matter is that balance is not black and white, it depends on other units and features.

There are already nerfs to merc cav and these should be tested before adding an additional 5 metal cost.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

2 hours ago, Nobbi said:

Now MERC CAV and CS CAV is different

they already were. They train at rank 2 which makes them stronger than regular CS cav.

[Player of 0AD]

Dont forget that there are also merc cavs which are also spearcav (carth, ptol, sele). They might be less dangerous than jav merc cav even though they are melee troops while the jav arent.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

6 hours ago, Player of 0AD said:

Dont forget that there are also merc cavs which are also spearcav (carth, ptol, sele). They might be less dangerous than jav merc cav even though they are melee troops while the jav arent.

yes, this is also why it should only be +1 hack not pierce.

[Nobbi]

15 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

???????????????????????????????????????????

I am sorry you feel ignored, but the spear cav buff discussion is quite relevant to the topic at hand. The fact of the matter is that balance is not black and white, it depends on other units and features.

There are already nerfs to merc cav and these should be tested before adding an additional 5 metal cost.

How should people find the discussion about speer CAV and contribute to it when it is hidden under the topic "Why mercenary cavalry is OP?"? I mean more or less everything in the game is related to each other. I think an own topic will help people find this discussion easier. The discussion about speer CAV is also very specific and is valid for CS, MERC and champs. Everything related to the OP-ness and the price of the MERC would suit this topic very well. Anyway, I appreciate that there is already an balancing proposal and I would be keen to test it for team games. Do you know if there is a testing phase with all patches before the actual launch?

[Gurken Khan]

22 minutes ago, Nobbi said:

Do you know if there is a testing phase with all patches before the actual launch?

Don't know exactly what you mean, but

• before the actual launch there is a phase with release candidates which include all accepted changes
• even before the RCs you can test the development version
• you can test every patch by applying it to your version

[LetswaveaBook]

21 hours ago, Nobbi said:

When people abuse your topic for other content it looks like they did not understand you.

I could understand if you were disappointed by the fact that this topic does not discuss mercenary cavalry.

You have made a few valid points that merc cav would deserve a cost of 95 metal. Though the essential question is: how much advantage merc cav deserve to get to compensate that they require phase 2?

I think increasing the cost to 90 metal is a step in the right direction and with 95 metal you might hurt them to much.

[LetswaveaBook]

On 27/04/2022 at 7:58 PM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

You guys agree on +1 hack armor only for CS spearcav and not champs?

I uploaded a differential which can be (re)viewed at: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4625?id=20173

@Nobbi, if you think the discussion is going off topic you can ask Stan` to split the topic.

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by LetswaveaBook
I reuploaded the differential as it contained mistakes.