Cataphract and Chariot Classes

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

For A27, I'd like to make mixins for the Cataphract and Chariot classes of units. Mixins are essentially like "trait" files that can add to or amend stats to different templates. So, I can create a "Cataphract" mixin that changes the Champion Cavalry Spearman templates for specific civs whose champion cav are technically cataphracts, not just your standard cavalry spearman (similar to how pikemen aren't just uber spearmen).

So, what we have to determine is what makes a Cataphract different from a standard champion spear cavalry unit. Same goes for Chariots vs. Cavalry Archers/Javelineers. 

 

First, the Cataphract civs:

Han Chinese 

Persians

Seleucids

 

 

Standard Champion Cavalry Spearman stats:

• Cost
  • 150 food
  • 80 wood
  • 100 metal
  • 25 seconds
  • 1 pop
• Attack
  • Damage
    • 8 hack
    • 6 pierce
  • Range
    • 4
  • Bonus
    • 1.75x vs. Cavalry
  • Repeat Time
    • 1.25 seconds
  • Damage Per Second (dps)
    • 6.4 hack
    • 4.8 pierce
  • Bonus dps
    • 11.2 hack
    • 8.4 pierce
• Health
  • 240 hp
• Resistance
  • 8 hack
  • 7 pierce
  • 20 crush
• WalkSpeed
  • 18

 

What can we do to make the Cataphract stand out from this? Additional armor, altered cost, attack stats, walk speed, etc. are all on the table.

[Outis]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone great idea!

My proposal:

- Additional hack and pierce armor: Kataphraktos literally means armored

- Additional metal cost: The additional armor should come from somewhere 

- Additional food cost: For heavier horses, not a priority like metal cost

- Additional attack: Cataphracts used kontos which were longer than xyston used earlier

- Speed: Here, I have an interesting idea. Instead of a speed adjustment, they could have lower acceleration, now that it is implemented. What would be super cool is, when charging is hopefully implemented, it would make cataphracts less viable to charge repeatedly. Instead, their role would be to slug out melee combat. This would differentiate them from other spear cavalry which deliver better results with repeated charging and pulling. In essense, this gives them a new combat role and players new tactical depth.

Edit: I missed the obvious,

- Additional range: As mentioned, cataphracts used longer kontos

Edited March 13, 2022 by Outis

[AIEND]

Cataphract: It should be a cavalry specializing in infantry. Horse armor is basically useless in cavalry combat, because cavalry will only attack riders at the same height instead of horses. Horse armor will only make Cataphract run slower and fall into the disadvantage.
So there should be no higher armor, and infantry (including dogs and other not-so-tall beasts) should have lower damage to Cataphract in melee and ranged attacks, such as infantry Counters: 0.5× vs Cataphract. Cataphract generally rushes directly into the infantry array to make a breakthrough, and should have trampling damage to the infantry.
If a faction has Cataphract, it shouldn't replace a champion spear cavalry, it should have both, otherwise Cataphract's higher cost and slower speed will make this faction lose out in cavalry battles.
In general, higher food and metal cost, slower running speed, higher resistance to infantry attacks, trampling damage to infantry.

Chariot: Just being able to shoot arrows in a Mercedes isn't perfect, because then the Chariot is still just a big horse archer.
Chariots and Cataphracts are very similar. Horse armor was first used on the draught horse of chariots. The wheels of chariots were generally equipped with sickles, but the shortcomings of inflexibility and expensiveness made the chariots eventually replaced by Cataphract.
The chariot is better protected because it has a carriage, but compared to the cavalry, the chariot runs slower but needs to maintain its speed. Once it stops, it is easy to be besieged by infantry, and the warriors and coachmen on the chariot will be easily removed from the vehicle. Pull down.
So chariots should have higher armor to allow ranged infantry to deal lower damage to chariots, Counters: 0.5× vs chariots. A devastating trampling charge can be launched against melee infantry. It takes a while to charge up to launch, otherwise it will be very vulnerable to stop and be surrounded by infantry. Then there are the higher costs especially for wood and food, after all chariots tend to have four horses pulling.

Edited March 14, 2022 by AIEND

[Yekaterina]

My thoughts:

Cataphract: slower speed, better armour, good against infantry, especially ranged infantry. Also good against other cav in close quarter combat but is not fast enough to beat spear cav.  

Chariots: mini siege towers that can shoot while moving, unlike regular cavalry archers that have to stand still before shooting. However, to nerf them, they don't target one unit but all enemies entities when fighting. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

20 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

Chariots: mini siege towers that can shoot while moving, unlike regular cavalry archers that have to stand still before shooting. However, to nerf them, they don't target one unit but all enemies entities when fighting. 

I think they should also work kinda like ele archers in the video @Freagarach shared:

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

3 hours ago, Outis said:

- Speed: Here, I have an interesting idea. Instead of a speed adjustment, they could have lower acceleration, now that it is implemented. What would be super cool is, when charging is hopefully implemented, it would make cataphracts less viable to charge repeatedly. Instead, their role would be to slug out melee combat. This would differentiate them from other spear cavalry which deliver better results with repeated charging and pulling. In essense, this gives them a new combat role and players new tactical depth.

 

Perhaps we can reduce the acceleration of cavalry to near instant, but keep the current acceleration for Cataphracts.

 

So, here's what I say so far(can be amended):

Champion Cavalry Cataphract stats:

• Cost
  • 150+50 food = 200
  • 80 wood
  • 100+50 metal = 150
  • 25 seconds (no change)
  • 1 pop (no change)
• Attack
  • Damage (no change; would add a higher charge bonus if/when the game has charging) 
    • 8 hack
    • 6 pierce
  • Range
    • 4+2 = 6 (longer spears)
  • Bonus
    • 1.5x vs. Cavalry (reduced by .25x)
  • Repeat Time
    • 1.25 seconds (no change)
  • Damage Per Second (dps)
    • 6.4 hack (no change)
    • 4.8 pierce (no change)
  • Bonus dps
    • 9.6 hack
    • 7.2 pierce
• Health
  • 240 hp (no change; extra armor instead)
• Resistance
  • 8+2 = 10 hack (can last longer in a melee); I suggest 1 additional armor tech in the forge for Cataphract civs to add 1 more to this (perhaps with a tradeoff of additional cost or less speed).
  • 7+1 = 8 pierce
  • 20 crush (no change)
• WalkSpeed
  • 18 - 1 = 17
  • Remove most acceleration from other cavalry, give Cataphracts some small additional acceleration and slightly greater turn time

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

9 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I think they should also work kinda like ele archers in the video @Freagarach shared:

 

Right, the archer/javelineer in the car is a turret. I think too, chariots can act like in this video here, where when the chariot dies, the rider hops off and can continue fighting (though has a slow health drain and will eventually die on his own):

 

[Outis]

Chariots were quite unique and were used sparingly in the timeframe of 0 A.D. Their advantage of speed was taken over by cavalry. In battles against disciplined opponents, they were easily defeated. I envision Chariots to have such differences to cavalry counterparts as to deserve their own templates. I am a fan of novelty .

- Cost: Chariots should cost high amount of wood

- Population: They come in teams of 2, why not make them cost 2 population?

- Built from: Chariots are constructs. Why not build them from a unique building? Or have a prerequisite for them as opposed to building them from stable right away? May echo "used sparingly".

- Trample damage: They need to deal trample damage as historically this is what they were deployed for in the time frame of 0 A.D.

- Armor: High pierce armor makes sense. I remember discussions about directional attacks. What would be super cool is to have directional armor, or make chariots significantly vulnerable to attacks from behind.

- Acceleration: Even lower than cataphracts... They should not be agile.

What I have in my mind is, chariots have some strengths (trample damage to massed units, strong front armor) which can be used to defeat undisciplined opponents (here I am thinking represented by not paying attention to micro by the player), but at the same time have exploitable weakness (cannot accelerate to outrun cavalry, weak against rear attacks) to be easily defeated by disciplined (micro-ing) opponents.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Chariots could be built from the Arsenal, where mechanical siege weapons are built.

Trample: Yes. Chariots, Elephants, and Cataphracts could get trample effect. Chariots could be a suicide unit in that regard. Could maybe have a death splash damage.

Population: Agreed. Chariots can be 2 pop.

Slow Acceleration: Agreed. 

Cost: 200 Food, 200 Wood? 

I would suggest Javelineers could have a +50% attack bonus vs. Chariots, as javelin-throwing light troops were often employed to defeat them.

All of this, plus my "rider hopping" feature (see video) could make them really unique.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Is there any way to limit the degree range of the "turret" function of those chariots. I was thinking front 180 degrees would be nice, since that way they would not win running directly away. Making them from siege workshop would be interesting, and I think if they are stationary, the guy driving the chariot could also be a javelineer or archer.

I am interested in this topic and I think it would be nice to do it for Axemen too, (or are they already their own class?)

Right now axemen are basically swords with a little crush dmg. Axe is easier to learn than sword, so maybe less xp to rank?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

2 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Is there any way to limit the degree range of the "turret" function of those chariots

That would be a needed feature for Cav Archers and Ele Archers for sure. I feel like a chariot archer should be able to turn around though if he wanted to.

Edited March 14, 2022 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

chariot archer should be able to turn around though if he wanted to.

If chariots are slower than most cav it would probably be ok.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

38 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

If chariots are slower than most cav it would probably be ok.

Right. Faster than infantry, slower than cav.

[LetswaveaBook]

On 13/03/2022 at 6:41 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I can create a "Cataphract" mixin that changes the Champion Cavalry Spearman templates for specific civs whose champion cav are technically cataphracts, not just your standard cavalry spearman (similar to how pikemen aren't just uber spearmen)

Creating a different class for cataphracts might sound all cool and such, but I wonder what the champion spear cavalry of the Gauls, Carthaginians, Kushites. Macedonians and Ptolemies are supposed to excel at. I see suggestions of durability, which might be not needed as there is a nisean war horse technology.

On 13/03/2022 at 6:41 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Same goes for Chariots vs. Cavalry Archers/Javelineers. 

I am not sure what to think about scythed chariots in the timeframe of 0ad. In most stories that I know about them, they weren't overly effective.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

4 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

Creating a different class for cataphracts might sound all cool and such, but I wonder what the champion spear cavalry of the Gauls, Carthaginians, Kushites. Macedonians and Ptolemies are supposed to excel at. I see suggestions of durability, which might be not needed as there is a nisean war horse technology.

Currently, champions are about 2 ranks above an elite citizen soldier. So, Champion Cav Spearmen will still remain uber even if Cataphracts have a slightly different role, cost, and stats. Cataphracts being different doesn't change those others from being what they always have been.

 

6 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

I am not sure what to think about scythed chariots in the timeframe of 0ad. In most stories that I know about them, they weren't overly effective.

They weren't overly effective, but they were used. Might as well make them interesting. I suggested they act like suicide units, which is pretty much how they were used.

[Yekaterina]

On 13/03/2022 at 9:20 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Right, the archer/javelineer in the car is a turret. I think too, chariots can act like in this video here, where when the chariot dies, the rider hops off and can continue fighting (though has a slow health drain and will eventually die on his own):

 

I really like this. 

not sure if others will agree though

[AIEND]

7小时前，叶卡捷琳娜说：

我真的很喜欢这个。 

不确定其他人是否会同意

Similar to soldiers stationed in the tower?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

34 minutes ago, AIEND said:

Similar to soldiers stationed in the tower?

Correct. The game calls this feature a "turret" in the code. A template propped to another template.

[AIEND]

11 小时前，wowgetoffyourcellphone 说：

正确的。 游戏在代码中将此功能称为“炮塔”。 一个模板支撑到另一个模板。

So further, can the chariot drivers and warriors be attacked by long-range weapons like standing on the city wall, if they are killed, the chariot will become unmanned, and we can use our own infantry to board Get on the chariot and use it?

[Freagarach]

Not yet, @AIEND.

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

Well more cavalry classes are always best. I don't know much about cataphract and I don't know what would their role be. Differentiating between a spear cavalry and a possible lancer class(i know that aesthetically they are already different) maybe the right step forward.

[Fabius]

I would be enthusiastic to see a super heavy cavalry unit like the cataphract in game  

[LetswaveaBook]

I think Briton chariots should be different from archer chariots. Maybe Mauryan chariots should function different than scythed chariots.

What I would like to see is to make the Briton chariot a unit that can carry infantry (or priests) without further benefits than speed. This gives the player the ability to quickly do guerrilla strikes with infantry. Every chariot would have fighting capabilities similar to an elite rank CS jav cav, but  when produced it also comes with a free infantry champion garrisoned in it, so you don't need to tediously load the chariots.

It would have the major advantage that the infantry are now a mobile force that unlike cavalry do not take a bonus damage from spearmen.

Edited March 24, 2022 by LetswaveaBook

[AIEND]

I have detailed settings for Cataphract and Chariot in the mod, which may give you inspiration.

https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/76607-明镜-mirror/