Athenian Champions Are Locked to Technology, Instead of City Phase

[kul]

One of the Athenians strong points, which is their Dock trained Champions - Athenian Marine and Mercenary Archers - are instead locked behind Iphicratean Reform, which supposed to just make them trainable from their war ships. Nothing in the description of the tech says anything about locking the units altogether, just the ability to train them from ships.
Dock doesnt always available to be built, so this in an edge for them which is otherwise is pretty subpar civilization. I do had noticed this bug in another thread from a month ago,  but I'm afraid that report get lost in the shuffle so hence why I posted this again in the Bug Reports.

I would love more for them to have any other buffs too, like maybe let their 10%+ Metal gathering /Phase to affect Stone gathering too, or to let these Dock Champions be buiildable in Phase 2 for some rushing strategy, which then can be protected with Athenian Walls to be build around them later, but thats more of a suggestion than anything. Thanks for everybody's work!

Edited March 10, 2022 by kul
additional image for clarification

[Gurken Khan]

18 minutes ago, kul said:

Dock doesnt always available to be built

I think it would be cool if those two units could be additionally built at ports and ships, not exclusively.

[Stan`]

@maroder wanna make two patches?

[Carltonus]

Also, "Iphicratean Reforms" would not a good name for this one, that itself is discussed further here.

Suggest the new name(s) for hiring marines and Cretan archers in the dock and/or triremes something to do with "(fast) deployment" or a "quick-reaction force" in Attic Greek.

1 hour ago, Gurken Khan said:

I think it would be cool if those two units could be additionally built at ports and ships, not exclusively.

They should be recruitable directly from the gymnasium and barracks, respectively, without any prerequisite research; that is for said hiring tech for both dock and warship.

[Player of 0AD]

It's a bid sad that Athenians can't train champions in their stables, and not in their barracks neither. Only Spartans share this weakness, and they have at least the skiritai commandos in their barracks which are something like semi-champions.

The gymnasion has a weakness: It's too big. It's so big that if you build it at the border you will gain like no territory at all.

[AIEND]

1小时前，0AD玩家说：

令人遗憾的是，雅典人不能在他们的马厩里训练冠军，也不能在他们的军营里。 只有斯巴达人有这个弱点，而且他们的军营里至少有一支类似于半冠军的突击队突击队。

健身房有个弱点：太大了。 它是如此之大，以至于如果你在边境建造它，你将获得几乎没有领土的东西。

I'm curious, how did gymnasium get added to the game in the first place? Why do the champions of Athens train there?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

6 hours ago, Player of 0AD said:

It's a bid sad that Athenians can't train champions in their stables, and not in their barracks neither. Only Spartans share this weakness, and they have at least the skiritai commandos in their barracks which are something like semi-champions.

The gymnasion has a weakness: It's too big. It's so big that if you build it at the border you will gain like no territory at all.

Possible Solutions:

Make the Gymnasium the Athenian's barracks and move things around.

Make the Gymnasium cheaper and stronger in some way.

 

4 hours ago, AIEND said:

I'm curious, how did gymnasium get added to the game in the first place? Why do the champions of Athens train there?

Because originally all of the other champions in the game were trained from the expensive Fortress. The Gymnasium also had a bonus for garrisoning troops inside. This made the Gymnasium a great structure, and added some historical flavor to the Athenians. Since then, there have been many changes to the game, some of which were mistakes, IMHO, like moving champions to the barracks, etc.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

9 hours ago, Carltonus said:

Suggest the new name(s) for hiring marines and Cretan archers in the dock and/or triremes something to do with "(fast) deployment" or a "quick-reaction force" in Attic Greek.

The tech could simply be called "Delian League" or "Delian Marines."

[maroder]

Off topic: I would actually support moving the champions back to the fortress again.

Now it is just a big tower, which is a bit sad.

Also makes it harder to spam champions, which is imo good.

Edited March 10, 2022 by maroder

[Carltonus]

On 10/3/2022 at 9:59 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The tech could simply be called "Delian League" or "Delian Marines."

Rather than editing the existing Iphicratean reforms tech itself, which can be a future game mechanic, create a new one as either of the above quote.

Said future mechanic is the one that would unlock the two champions, one of them bringing back the champion skirmisher from Alpha 23 but with intended garb.

[Carltonus]

Sorry for double posting, but @Freagarach, the present Iphicratean reforms tech in the next alpha is inconsistent with the name itself and historically. Better if a new tech was made (see previous post above) for the unlocking of marines and Cretan archers in ports/triremes called "Delian (whatever)" or something else, and the actual "Iphicratean Reforms" is for unlocking the epilektos (and possibly the future replacement of the stoa thureophoros from Alpha 23).

Suggest that said Cretan archer and marine (city phase) do not need the tech for training in barracks and gymnasium, respectively. Anyone have other thoughts?

[AIEND]

12 分钟前，Carltonus 说：

很抱歉重复发布，但 @Freagarach ，目前 Iphicratean 改革技术在下一个 alpha 中与名称本身和历史不一致。 如果开发了一项新技术（参见上面的前一篇文章）来解锁称为“Delian（随便）”或其他东西的港口/三叉戟中的海军陆战队和克里特弓箭手，并且实际的“Iphicratean Reforms”是用于解锁epilektos（和可能是 Alpha 23 的 stoa thureophoros 的未来替代品）。

建议说克里特弓箭手和海军陆战队员（城市阶段）分别不需要兵营和体育馆训练的技术。 有人有其他想法吗？

The Marine Corps should be trained as a very basic citizen infantry, because the navy itself is the characteristic of the Athenian civilization.

[Carltonus]

On 20/04/2022 at 12:33 PM, AIEND said:

The Marine Corps should be trained as a very basic citizen infantry, because the navy itself is the characteristic of the Athenian civilization.

Reluctantly agree, but that will make two citizen swordsmen, the other being the hippeus (Greek cavalry). If there is consensus, that and the Greek scout cavalry may have to swap their recruitable phases. As well as a replacement for the champion unit (the light peltast, anybody?).

There was another stoa unit in alpha 23, a mercenary Thracian swordsman which is a mix of the present Macedonian champion and Seleuicid mercenary. It was recruitable in town phase but acted as like other champions. The faction had three swordsmen types in all.

Is anyone really going to do the necessary rename of and creation of the marine and reform techs? Would post this to the alpha 27 suggestions for reminder if this is not the right time...

[maroder]

2 hours ago, Carltonus said:

Is anyone really going to do the necessary rename of and creation of the marine and reform techs? Would post this to the alpha 27 suggestions for reminder if this is not the right time...

So basically just rename the tech? If so, then what actual name should we use? I haven't seen that much concensus

[Carltonus]

1 hour ago, maroder said:

So basically just rename the tech? If so, then what actual name should we use? I haven't seen that much concensus

The plan was that the marine-unlocking tech be a new file itself, but since the Iphicratean Reforms parameters were originally for this purpose, might as well rename it to what @wowgetoffyourcellphone prefers better for ease: "Delian League", "Delian Marines", or somebody else can propose a different name. In my case, since it is for allowing marines and Cretans to be recruited at ports and triremes, name it to something like "Naval Deployment", "Naval Preparedness", or the related. Then the consensus process can begin.

Back on topic and reiterating, the Iphicratean Reforms tech is supposed to be for unlocking the epilektos (and the future light peltast/hoplite hybrid). Some have said that this is post-golden age of Athens, so it does little to the faction as a whole and could put the epilektos itself in doubt. But since it would be one less champion, this already-present tech should serve its purpose. The archer- and marine-unlocking tech will still be there, but the two units should not need this to be required to be trained at the barracks and gymnasium, respectively; only for extension to be trained also at the two naval entities mentioned above.

Edited April 23, 2022 by Carltonus
Expanding

[maroder]

1 hour ago, Carltonus said:

Then the consensus process can begin.

exactly

1 hour ago, Carltonus said:

The archer- and marine-unlocking tech will still be there, but the two units should not need this to be required to be trained at the barracks and gymnasium, respectively; only for extension to be trained also at the two naval entities mentioned above.

That would have been my preferred solution, but the unlocking code doesn't allow something like this at the moment (at least as far as I know).

[Silier]

6 minutes ago, maroder said:

That would have been my preferred solution, but the unlocking code doesn't allow something like this at the moment (at least as far as I know).

that generally done by having separate template just with the required technology like for women in houses