Sacred places / Sites [ Gaia - Neutral stuff]

[Lion.Kanzen]

6 hours ago, Gurken Khan said:

I was wondering if any of our civs would consider ruins of old and dead civs as sacred. Whatever works, I guess.

It also reminds me of something I read about Herodotus at one time.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Take this from an article I recently read.

 

During the second century, the empire reached its apogee geographically (under the emperor Trajan) and economically (under Hadrian and the Antonines). Behind this success, however, there was cause for concern. Emperor Marcus Aurelius fought mightily against the barbarians on the frontiers. Books on history by Pausanias, Plutarch, Athenaeus and others reflected a general feeling that the old ways were better and that something had been lost in the new Roman era. Movements such as the Neo-Pythagoreans and the Christian Encratists adopted a negative view of the material world. The question of the origin of evil troubled many, especially Jews and Christians who believed in a good Creator. As a consequence, undercurrents began to push society towards another spiritual world.

The cult of ancient religions.

 

Neopythagoreanism

It originated in the 1st century BC and flourished during the 1st and 2nd centuries AD. The Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition describes neopythagoreanism as "a link in the chain between the old and the new" within Hellenistic philosophy. Central to neopythagorean thought was the concept of a soul and its inherent desire for a unio mystica with the divine.

 

In ancient times there was a lot of respect for ancestral cultures.

 

Rome recognized the Jews as an ancient people, and while Christians were considered a branch of Judaism, they enjoyed some protection. But this situation was ambiguous, because there was popular animosity against the Jews, especially after the Jewish revolts against Rome (the last in the 130s during Hadrian's reign).

 

But most Christians clung to their Jewish heritage. Partly because this showed that Christianity was not something new (a major pagan criticism against Christians), but had ancient historical roots, an important fact in a culture that valued the oldest as the best and truest. Jewish Christians maintained various aspects of Judaism along with their faith in Jesus as the Messiah. Gentile Christians, while not observing the ceremonial aspects of the Law, continued to regard the Jewish Tanak in its Greek translation as Scripture.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

Sometimes certain cults as in Hellenism are linked to older religions.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Roman_mysteries

In secret cults they mention a Indo- European Iranian origin.

I am going to investigate if Catholic Pilgrimages are not another religious syncretism.

A pilgrimage or pilgrimage is a journey to a sanctuary or sacred place with important religious connotations. It is also a journey made by a believer (or group of believers) to a place of devotion or a place considered sacred according to one's religion.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

The concept of pilgrimage was already known in pre-Columbian Central America. The most important places of pilgrimage are:

 

Teotihuacan (visited even centuries after its buildings were already a ruin), chosen for being the place where all the gods were together to protect the creation of mankind.

 

Chichen Itza, especially the sacred Cenote, a natural well consecrated to the Mayan god Chaac (god of rain) and place of sacrifices.

 

Izamal, consecrated to the creator god Itzamná.

 

Cozumel, consecrated to Ixchel, goddess of the moon and gestation.

---

This is good for our game.

there are pilgrimages in Zoroastrianism to temples of fire.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_temple

from Herodotus it is known that in the mid-5th century BCE the Zoroastrians worshipped to the open sky, ascending mounds to light their fires.[8] Strabo confirms this, noting that in the 6th century, the sanctuary at Zela in Cappadocia was an artificial mound, walled in, but open to the sky, although there is no evidence whatsoever that the Zela-sanctuary was Zoroastrian.[9] Although the "burning of fire" was a key element in Zoroastrian worship, the burning of "eternal" fire, as well as the presence of "light" in worship, was also a key element in many other religions.

 

 

By the Parthian era (250 BCE–226 CE), there were two places of worship in Zoroastrianism: one, called bagin or ayazan, was a sanctuary dedicated to a specific divinity; it was constructed in honor of the patron saint (or angel) of an individual or family and included an icon or effigy of the honored. The second, the atroshan, were the "places of burning fire" which became more and more prevalent as the iconoclastic movement gained support. Following the rise of the Sassanid dynasty, the shrines to the Yazatas continued to exist, but with the statues – by law – either abandoned or replaced by fire altars.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pir_(Zoroastrianism)

Greece.

The Eleusinian mysteries included a pilgrimage. The procession to Eleusis began at the Athenian cemetery Kerameikos and from there the participants walked to Eleusis, along the Sacred Way (Ἱερὰ Ὁδός, Hierá Hodós).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerameikos

Edited October 15, 2021 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

https://altesitte.info/altarformen.html

Hörgr: Germanic Pre Christian shrines.

[rollieoo]

How about cairns or the Dutch 'hunebed' ? Mounds were already suggested I believe. Wishing trees maybe? 

[alre]

I too don't think it makes sense to ise ruins of ancient places of cult, as the fact that they are now ruined doesn't make you think they are quite sacred. Also mounds aren't properly sacred, and they don't seem like something you would conquer to claim victory.

I would also exclude completely developed temples and such, as they would look out of place in maps otherwise deserted or almost so.

I think what would make most sense are little shrines around particular features that could be considered as sacred places to the ancients, somewhere worth building big temples to the gods, but before such temples are built. Like how could it be Delphi when the first oracle established there? How may have been Olympia, when it first came to someone's mind to keep an eternal flame burning there? If you like this line of thought, wishing trees would also fit in pretty well, sacred sources also are a common feature.

If we are making these various sites though, I think something in common among all of them shoud be adopted so they can be easily recognized. A circle of stones around them for instance should be enough.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, alre said:

I too don't think it makes sense to ise ruins of ancient places of cult, as the fact that they are now ruined doesn't make you think they are quite sacred. Also mounds aren't properly sacred, and they don't seem like something you would conquer to claim victory

not all civilizations built temples. in fact cults originated before temples, like animism.

 

1 hour ago, alre said:

I think what would make most sense are little shrines around particular features that could be considered as sacred places to the ancients, somewhere worth building big temples to the gods, but before such temples are built. Like how could it be Delphi when the first oracle established there? How may have been Olympia, when it first came to someone's mind to keep an eternal flame burning there? If you like this line of thought, wishing trees would also fit in pretty well, sacred sources also are a common feature

I have in mind that, there is not only one way to offer worship.

 

What most closely resembles the ancient Roman cult is Roman Catholicism and its syncretism.

 

Sometimes the places of worship have to do with the descent or sighting of a god or goddess, or simply some natural phenomenon.

 For example.

The most ancient and the most prominent asclepeion (or healing temple) according to the geographer of the 1st century BC, Strabo, was situated in Trikala.[27] The 1st century AD Pool of Bethesda, described in the Gospel of John, chapter 5, was found by archaeologists in 1964 to be part of an asclepeion.[28][29] One of the most famous temples of Asclepius was at Epidaurus in north-eastern Peloponnese, dated to the fourth century BC.[30] Another famous asclepeion was built approximately a century later on the island of Kos,[30] where Hippocrates, the legendary "father of medicine", may have begun his career. Other asclepieia were situated in Gortys (in Arcadia), and Pergamum in Asia.

 

From the fifth century BC onwards,[31] the cult of Asclepius grew very popular and pilgrims flocked to his healing temples (Asclepieia) to be cured of their ills. Ritual purification would be followed by offerings or sacrifices to the god (according to means), and the supplicant would then spend the night in the holiest part of the sanctuary– the abaton (or adyton). Any dreams or visions would be reported to a priest who would prescribe the appropriate therapy by a process of interpretation.[32] Some healing temples also used sacred dogs to lick the wounds of sick petitioners.[33] In honor of Asclepius, a particular type of non-venomous snake was often used in healing rituals, and these snakes— the Aesculapian Snakes— slithered around freely on the floor in dormitories where the sick and injured slept. These snakes were introduced at the founding of each new temple of Asclepius throughout the classical world.

 

The original Hippocratic Oath began with the invocation "I swear by Apollo the Physician and by Asclepius and by Hygieia and Panacea and by all the gods ...".[33]

 

Some later religious movements claimed links to Asclepius. In the 2nd century AD the controversial miracle-worker Alexander claimed that his god Glycon, a snake with a "head of linen"[34] was an incarnation of Asclepius. The Greek language rhetorician and satirist Lucian produced the work Alexander the False Prophet to denounce the swindler for future generations. He described Alexander as having a character "made up of lying, trickery, perjury, and malice; [it was] facile, audacious, venturesome, diligent in the execution of its schemes, plausible, convincing, masking as good, and wearing an appearance absolutely opposite to its purpose."[34] In Rome, the College of Aesculapius and Hygia was an association (collegium) that served as a burial society and dining club that also participated in the Imperial cult.

 

The botanical genus Asclepias (commonly known as milkweed) is named after him and includes the medicinal plant A. tuberosa or "Pleurisy root".

 

Asclepius was depicted on the reverse of the Greek 10,000 drachmas banknote of 1995–2001.[35]

 

At the city of Miletus, archaeologists discovered a cave, under the city's theatre, which was associated with Asclepius cult.

 

The Bethesda Pool cult thing wasn't because there was a temple.

The history of the pool began in the 8th century BC, when a dam was built across the short Beth Zeta valley, turning it into a reservoir for rain water;[18][19][20] a sluice-gate in the dam allowed the height to be controlled, and a rock-cut channel brought a steady stream of water from the reservoir into the city.[18] The reservoir became known as the Upper Pool (בריכה העליונה).

In the 1st century BC, natural caves to the east of the two pools were turned into small baths, as part of an asclepieion; however, the Mishnah implies that at least one of these new pools was sacred to Fortuna, the goddess of fortune, rather than Asclepius, the god of healing.

There are places that are just simple natural places with mystical properties (according to the believers in these cults).

Others are the sacreed grooves.

A sacred grove or sacred woods are any grove of trees that are of special religious importance to a particular culture. Sacred groves feature in various cultures throughout the world. They were important features of the mythological landscape and cult practice of Celtic, Estonian, Baltic, Germanic, ancient Greek, Near Eastern, Roman, and Slavic polytheism, and continue to occur in locations such as India, Japan, and West Africa. Examples of sacred groves include the Greco-Roman temenos, various Germanic words for sacred groves, and the Celtic nemeton, which was largely but not exclusively associated with Druidic practice. During the Northern Crusades, there was a common practice of building churches on the sites of sacred groves. The Lakota and various other North American tribes consider particular forests or other natural landmarks to be sacred. Singular trees which a community deems to hold religious significance are known as sacred trees.

 

Many small sanctuaries consisted simply of a temenos with an altar and no temple. It was almost always necessary to undergo purification before being able to enter it.

The Roman legions could not enter Rome without first purifying themselves of shed blood.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

A temenos is often physically marked by a peribolos fence or wall (e.g. Delphi) as a structural boundary. Originally the peribolos was often just a set of marker stones demarcating the boundary, or a light fence, and the earliest sanctuaries appear to have begun as a peribolos around a sacred grove, spring, cave or other feature, with an altar but no temple or cult image. But as Greek sanctuaries became more elaborate large stone walls with gateways or gatehouses were built around important sanctuaries.

The most famous sacred groves in mainland Greece was the oak grove at Dodona. Outside the walls of Athens, the site of the Platonic Academy was a sacred grove of olive trees, still recalled in the phrase "the groves of Academe".

 

In central Italy, the town of Nemi recalls the Latin nemus Aricinum, or "grove of Ariccia", a small town a quarter of the way around the lake. In Antiquity, the area had no town, but the grove was the site of one of the most famous of Roman cults and temples: that of Diana Nemorensis, a study of which served as the seed for Sir James Frazer's seminal work on the anthropology of religion, The Golden Bough.

 

A sacred grove behind the House of the Vestal Virgins on the edge of the Roman Forum lingered until its last vestiges were burnt in the Great Fire of Rome in 64 AD.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Lion.Kanzen

[Ceres]

How about a Caravanserai? Or would such a building be too large? Anyway, maybe the 3rd link for photos can serve as inspiration for you arts pros.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wikiCaravanserai

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa'd_al-Saltaneh_Caravanserai

https://www.qwant.com/?client=ff_android&t=images&q=Caravanserai

PS:

I understand that they are not really sacred places, but maybe you could regard them as important places to replenish resources and to rest and get back energy (health)?

Edited October 15, 2021 by Ceres

[Lion.Kanzen]

7 minutes ago, Ceres said:

How about a Caravanserai? Or would such a building be too large? Anyway, maybe the 3rd link for photos can serve as inspiration for you arts pros.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wikiCaravanserai

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa'd_al-Saltaneh_Caravanserai

https://www.qwant.com/?client=ff_android&t=images&q=Caravanserai

It looks interesting. it would be necessary to see how practical a large structure is.

In the case of a large structure, which is wonderful to us, it would be the only one on the map and in the center, for some king of the hill variant mode.

[Ceres]

Imagine a scenario map where different "parties" need to take the carawanserei and defend it to win the game.

Oh, and here are some photos with interesting trees:

https://www.qwant.com/?client=ff_android&q=sacred+trees&t=images

[Gurken Khan]

43 minutes ago, Ceres said:

How about a Caravanserai?

I like the idea.

Controlling the (majority of) Caravanserais would also appeal to my more 'wordly' understanding of the world, rather than the 'magical'.

[Lion.Kanzen]

15 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

I like the idea.

Controlling the (majority of) Caravanserais would also appeal to my more 'wordly' understanding of the world, rather than the 'magical'.

in the Imperator for Rome a Grand Strategy game. there were pilgrimage events.

They always let money allow the worship of travelers..

Another bonus would be having a range of vision and territorial control.

in StarCraft 2 there were ruins and artifacts that allowed for greater LoS.

We will discuss that in the gameplay.

[Lion.Kanzen]

About Hellenistic religion.

 

[...]At the local level, the landscape was filled with sacred spots and monuments; for example, many statues of Nymphs were found near and around springs, and the stylized figures of Hermes could often be found on street corners.

[Gurken Khan]

17 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

We will discuss that in the gameplay.

Alright. But I think ruins v. whole buildings and sacred/magic v. mundane sites are fundamental questions decisive for the art to come up with.

[Lion.Kanzen]

20 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

Alright. But I think ruins v. whole buildings and sacred/magic v. mundane sites are fundamental questions decisive for the art to come up with.

you have to see what exists historically. also this is the art forum. what we see here can create a larger side discussion.

[Lion.Kanzen]

for now I have an idea of the dimensions of these places on the maps.

It will vary from the size of a statue to the size of a civic center.

There will be at least 3 sizes.

And 3 levels of variation: rural, Town and city, this corresponds to the sizes.

And several cultural themes. But this is just the map factor. The first will be Celtic- Germanic , Asian European nomads, Hellenistic, Egyptian, Semitic and Iranian or Indo Iranian.

The props in the eyecandy list will be very useful.

Ideally, start with the base according to the sizes given.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Some concepts I imagine as the structures of the AoE.

Only instead of housing a fountain it will have a statue.

This would be the average city model.

The Roman one in the upper corner has several props, which will serve as inspiration.

I would only widen the ground.

There are several 3D work I did for the Roman CC 2nd phase.( Bit finished yet).

The basic Hellenistic-Iranian model would be a sacred fire.

That would be the basic model for this whole mini project.

The worship of the elements is the most primitive worship that exists alongside astral worship.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

the smallest would be these.

 

there would be another one like Bethesta pool.

or Lararium extructure.

small temple.

Edited October 16, 2021 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

fire shrine, Im interested in this.

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

Quote

Places could also acquire a divine connection; the great oracles such as that of Apollo at Delphi and Zeus at Dodona may well have begun as places considered particularly good to receive signs from the gods. Such places became hugely important centres with their priest oracles consulted by both individuals and city-states so that the rather vague and ambiguous proclamations might help guide their future conduct.

https://www.worldhistory.org/Greek_Religion/

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

fire shrine, Im interested in this.

 

Quote

Tripod cauldrons were one of a type of bronze vessels produced and used in ancient Greece. These vessels had a variety of functions. They could be used for practical purposes, including warming and cooking food. They were often votive, dedicated to gods and goddesses at religious sanctuaries. Finally, they were trophies, presented to victors at theatrical and athletic events. There are two main styles of tripods, called Geometric or Orientalizing. 

Geometric tripod cauldrons were developed in Greece during the Geometric period, which lasted from about 900 to 700 B.C.E. These vessels consisted of a large bowl with three attached legs that allowed the vessel to be stood over a fire. Orientalizing tripod cauldrons began to appear during the Orientalizing period, that is, from about 750 to 650 B.C.E. These consisted of a large bowl and a separate or detached stand with three legs on which the bowl would be set. This detached model was more functional, as the bowl could be moved while the stand remained in place (1). This new form grew in popularity and was used into and through the Roman period, although the older Geometric-style tripod cauldrons continued to be produced (2). Examples of both, however, are rare because they were usually made of bronze, which could be melted down and reused. 

Geometric tripod cauldrons, such as an example from the site of Delphi, were made of beaten bronze and, as above, consisted of a bowl with three attached legs and large, upright, circular handles. Both legs and handles were attached to the bowl with rivets. Their form may be related to cauldrons from Minoan Crete and dating to as early as 1,600 B.C.E. (3). Smaller versions of these Geometric tripod cauldrons are thought to have had a domestic function, while larger and monumental versions may have been votive or symbolic. Eventually, these tripod cauldrons were used exclusively as votive offerings to gods and goddesses and large quantities of them have been found in religious sanctuaries like Olympia dating back to the Geometric period (4). 

Orientalizing tripod cauldrons were also made of bronze, but their appearance was influenced by Near Eastern vessels. In the Orientalizing model, the cauldron's bronze bowl was separate from the bronze tripod stand. Often the bowl was decorated with griffin protomes and other projecting sculptural elements. Terracotta versions could be adorned with attachments, like the siren attachment in the CU Art Museum's collection. Examples of these tripod cauldrons have been found throughout Greece and the Near East and, importantly, on the island of Cyprus, which provided a crucial link in the trade between Greece and the Near East (6). 

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Lion.Kanzen

[Ceres]

@Lion.Kanzen

Great inspirations and proposals, I like very much. Thank you!

Besides, one of your posts contains "encrypted gstatic" links. What's their purpose?

[Lion.Kanzen]

23 minutes ago, Ceres said:

Besides, one of your posts contains "encrypted gstatic" links. What's their purpose?

Which?