Elephants Too Strong Against Stone Walls

[Thales]

Still getting clobbered at the easy level. The nemesis still being the elephants. Stone walls seem to be too weak when attacked by elephants. Historically, have elephants been successful in breaching stone defensive walls?  I'm undecided about the appropriateness of the strength of stone towers and gates when attacked by elephants. I don't have a problem with the appropriateness of strength concerning buildings, such as barracks, when attacked by an elephant since they would be pretty flimsy. 

I would like to suggest that the defense factor of stone structures (specifically walls) versus elephants be increased.

 

 

[ChronA]

The elephants as siege weapons trope is definitely ahistorical. However the game engine right now doesn't really simulate the things they were actually used for: breaking enemy morale and stampeding through otherwise immovable infantry blocks.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

It is true that there is great inaccuracy with elephants in 0ad. But in terms of gameplay, elephants are pretty easy to counter.

A few tips that might make it easier for you:

• focus on getting a large population as fast as you can, this will make it easier to afford everything, and the AI's army will seem smaller if you have many more units.
• skirmishers are a good counter to elephants because they do a lot of pierce damage, and can all attack the elephant at once

[MoLAoS]

Total War, and every other game, also use elephants as anti-siege, though typically as gate breakers rather than smashing stone walls. Could they be shifted to that?

[Stan`]

They could if we use the turret feature for gates.  I believe they need to be patched for that though.

If gates are turrets units could be restricted to be only able to attack the turret and not the wall. Although since walls are not really used in competitive games it could render elephants useless.

[Thales]

10 hours ago, ChronA said:

The elephants as siege weapons trope is definitely ahistorical. However the game engine right now doesn't really simulate the things they were actually used for: breaking enemy morale and stampeding through otherwise immovable infantry blocks.

You have identified the appropriate uses for elephants: "breaking enemy morale and stampeding through otherwise immovable infantry blocks."

9 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

It is true that there is great inaccuracy with elephants in 0ad. But in terms of gameplay, elephants are pretty easy to counter.

A few tips that might make it easier for you:

• focus on getting a large population as fast as you can, this will make it easier to afford everything, and the AI's army will seem smaller if you have many more units.
• skirmishers are a good counter to elephants because they do a lot of pierce damage, and can all attack the elephant at once

I've been trying to produce Athenian Cavalry Javelineer, but have been having resource shortages.  I also believe that I may also be under-utilizing the Athenian Slinger Militia.

10 hours ago, MoLAoS said:

Total War, and every other game, also use elephants as anti-siege, though typically as gate breakers rather than smashing stone walls. Could they be shifted to that?

Gate smashing looks to be an appropriate use. Nevertheless, it should not be easy for the elephants.

6 hours ago, Stan` said:

They could if we use the turret feature for gates.  I believe they need to be patched for that though.

If gates are turrets units could be restricted to be only able to attack the turret and not the wall. Although since walls are not really used in competitive games it could render elephants useless.

Elephants would not be "rendered useless", assuming that I understand what you said correctly.  Elephants, in game-play, would remain very effective at destroying buildings and disrupting infantry/cavalry formations.

[Ceres]

23 minutes ago, Thales said:

 I also believe that I may also be under-utilizing the Athenian Slinger Militia.

Again I wonder how slingers could do harm to war elephants. Or do we assume that the slingers rather hit the controlling riders, thus kind of "killing" the eles as well? I mention this here, as in another thread a similar question popped up how war eles could be best faced, and there, too, slingers were mentioned. Personally, I find throwing stones at these large animals quite harmless, but maybe I'm utterly wrong.

[Gurken Khan]

22 minutes ago, Ceres said:

Again I wonder how slingers could do harm to war elephants.

According to https://www.wayoflife.org/reports/the_power_of_the_ancient_sling.html the projectile could reach or even exceed 100 m/s.

(It says 'catch'.)

 

[Ceres]

I'm just thinking about these TV shows where they "scientifically" let a T-Rex battle some other Sauropode to see who was stronger. But it's good to know that - besides pikemen - slingers seem to be the choice vs. war eles.

[Gurken Khan]

26 minutes ago, Ceres said:

I'm just thinking about these TV shows where they "scientifically" let a T-Rex battle some other Sauropode to see who was stronger.

My favorite episode is where - oh, I don't actually have a favorite episode of that kind. But if the slings and the projectiles are known I guess it doesn't take too much speculation to measure their range and velocity. And if it actually becomes comparable to a .45 it is easy to imagine they actually do damage, and of course make the beast uncontrollable.

34 minutes ago, Ceres said:

But it's good to know that - besides pikemen - slingers seem to be the choice vs. war eles.

Yeah, and if the linked source above is correct (Scipio, Caesar...) then it's also historically correct.

[MoLAoS]

4 hours ago, Ceres said:

Again I wonder how slingers could do harm to war elephants. Or do we assume that the slingers rather hit the controlling riders, thus kind of "killing" the eles as well? I mention this here, as in another thread a similar question popped up how war eles could be best faced, and there, too, slingers were mentioned. Personally, I find throwing stones at these large animals quite harmless, but maybe I'm utterly wrong.

Slings could kill horses or men in armor with a good shot. Of course full plate might provide more safety than leather. A major value of slings was herding elephants. Like when they break in total war and run amok. Similarly if HP in 0AD represents morale and not life points then slings could easily break elephants even if they couldn't kill them without a lucky headshot.

[Ceres]

It would be interesting to see war elephants going into a stampede.

[Yekaterina]

7 hours ago, Thales said:

I've been trying to produce Athenian Cavalry Javelineer, but have been having resource shortages.  I also believe that I may also be under-utilizing the Athenian Slinger Militia.

If you see an elephant coming, send a few spearmen (10 should be enough) forward to block its path, then target all of your slings at the elephant. It will die pretty quickly. 

If you really wish to play Athenians, you can use some cavalry javelinists to chase after it. Use 10-20 and the elephant should be dead in a few seconds.  Alternatively, use Iphicrates and some mercenary javelineers in a formation to target the elephants 1 by 1. The champion archers are also a good option to snipe elephants from a distance if you can afford significant numbers of them (15-30). 

If you find Athenians difficult to play with, then choose another civ. 

[ChronA]

12 hours ago, Gurken Khan said:

According to https://www.wayoflife.org/reports/the_power_of_the_ancient_sling.html the projectile could reach or even exceed 100 m/s.

Hm... Slings are certainly formidable weapons, but to suggest that they could propel shot of a similar mass to a .45 at comparable velocity to modern firearms does not parse. Even .22 LR with an energy of under 200 J can easily shred all but very high quality reproduction plate armor. If slings could approach those kinds of energies, they would have been MUCH more effective than crossbows or high poundage war bows against mid to late medieval armor. Yet I have never heard of any medieval army fielding slingers as a core part of their infantry complement. I'd want to see some pretty extraordinary evidence before I'll buy that ancient slingers could reproducibly break 75 m/s.

Don't take that as me contesting the idea that slings should be effective against elephants though! Even if it was just 50 m/s, slingers with lead shot would still open up wounds that would drive an elephant crazy, and if hit with enough I'm sure would eventually make them bleed to death.

[MoLAoS]

43 minutes ago, ChronA said:

Hm... Slings are certainly formidable weapons, but to suggest that they could propel shot of a similar mass to a .45 at comparable velocity to modern firearms does not parse. Even .22 LR with an energy of under 200 J can easily shred all but very high quality reproduction plate armor. If slings could approach those kinds of energies, they would have been MUCH more effective than crossbows or high poundage war bows against mid to late medieval armor. Yet I have never heard of any medieval army fielding slingers as a core part of their infantry complement. I'd want to see some pretty extraordinary evidence before I'll buy that ancient slingers could reproducibly break 75 m/s.

Don't take that as me contesting the idea that slings should be effective against elephants though! Even if it was just 50 m/s, slingers with lead shot would still open up wounds that would drive an elephant crazy, and if hit with enough I'm sure would eventually make them bleed to death.

https://www.uslawshield.com/tactical-slingshots-mere-toy/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/whistling-sling-bullets-were-roman-troops-secret-weapon/#:~:text=Deadly in expert hands&text=In the hands of an,your head%2C" Reid said.

[Gurken Khan]

7 hours ago, MoLAoS said:

https://www.uslawshield.com/tactical-slingshots-mere-toy/

I don't think modern slingshots help us discussing ancient slings.

7 hours ago, MoLAoS said:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/whistling-sling-bullets-were-roman-troops-secret-weapon/#:~:text=Deadly in expert hands&text=In the hands of an,your head%2C" Reid said.

This I found interesting. The whistling bullets, and for the larger projectiles the mentioned speed of 100mph / 160km/h.

@Thales I guess the answer is yes, you should use slingers.

 

[Thales]

18 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

If you find Athenians difficult to play with, then choose another civ. 

LOL.  I'm just being stubborn. Want to find the utopian "road" to success. Anyway, its part of the learning experience.

[hyperion]

4 hours ago, Gurken Khan said:

I don't think modern slingshots help us discussing ancient slings.

Just watched the video doing the testing, the obvious result if you throw a one pound stone it will best guns and slings. So we can conclude NO weapon is most powerful. Science the American John Doe way...

Anyway, ancient slings were seriously dangerous, just needs quite some practice.

[Yekaterina]

17 minutes ago, Thales said:

LOL.  I'm just being stubborn. Want to find the utopian "road" to success. Anyway, its part of the learning experience.

Athenians can be strong if you play them properly. Here are some of the very strong strategies you can use with Athenians:

1. Javelin cavalry + infantry hoplite. It is able to crush any other infantry combination that does not contain champions. Be sure to research all of the techs in the blacksmith and Hoplite tradition in the CC. 

2. Mercenary Skirmisher rush in P2. 

3.  Sword cavalry raid. Add a few javelin cavalry to make it even stronger. 

 

[Thales]

Playing the Athenians, finally got a stalemate.  Successfully killed elephants. End score favored the AI, but they were not able to get inside my defenses. I was slowly expanding my controlled territory. Called it quits when the dinner bell rang.

[Gurken Khan]

36 minutes ago, Thales said:

Called it quits when the dinner bell rang.

You know you can save and resume single player games, right?

[Thales]

50 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

You know you can save and resume single player games, right?

Correct, paused the game several times. I had already been playing for several hours. Time to move-on to the tedium of everyday life.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Thales
Added text.

[Ceres]

10 hours ago, Thales said:

Called it quits when the dinner bell rang.

I didn't know that 0 A.D. has a dinner bell! How can I enable it? The kids always take so long to leave their match to come to dinner. A bell - besides the 2 alarm bells would be great indeed: "Come to dinner instantly - or lose the match".

[davidsrsb]

I don't like javelin cavalry being so effective against elephants, historically the elephants smell spooked horses.

Pikes and archers/crossbow men should be the most effective, an elephant could not carry effective armour

[Dasaavawar]

Elephants are too OP. Everytime I play with a friend and this guy introduces like 40 Elephants in the battlefield, I know I'm already defeated.

They should be more expensive at least in terms of food (from 4 to 5 times the cost of horses, around 600 to 800 of food) and require more population available (and probably a lot of others things).

 

Edited October 8, 2021 by Dasaavawar