overcorrected archers

[alre]

I only realised yesterday that in A25 different speeds between ranged infantry units were reintroduced. Today I did a combat test on Atlas with 30 archers vs 30 skirmishers. And the skirmishers won.

This means that not only skirms will be stronger than archers against melee (as they already were), but they will even be stronger than archers in a direct fight, AND in economy!

In other words, archers will be worthless. In fact, there will be 3 factors (that I know of) playing against archers in A25, compared to A23 where they were already used very little: nerfed fortifications, larger arrow spread and more agile cavalry.

I thought that the only direct nerf to archers was the larger spread (and, less directly, the changed archer tradition), and I thought it was a very wise decision: balancing trough little steps. Instead they got crippled like never before. This is terrible. Please make ranged infantry speeds equal again.

[Player of 0AD]

Lets first test A25 on a big basis? The speed differences are rather low.

Archers might be still powerfull if massed, and useful because of their superior range.

[alre]

Yes, at least archer civs retain their pop cap bonus. But they lose to massed skirms despite their superior range, because lower speed compensates for that. 

[alre]

I tried again, this time with 60 extremely massed archers against 60 javeliners. javs won again by a small margin (6 left). For the game to be balanced they should have lost bad.

[alre]

60 massed archers vs 60 skirms properly managed to stay massed as well (avoid slow unwinding), ends with a crushing win by the skirms (26 left).

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@alre

One thing I noticed is that all ranged units seem to prefer attacking the melee vs melee battle rather than the skirmishers in the back even if you target them. What you see in the pike+skirm versus spear+archer situation is archers wind up shooting only the pikes, where they do negligible damage, and the skirms are able to out dps the spears to win the melee fight and then pass on to the archers.

My thinking is that if ranged units would "listen" to targeting orders, then the archers would be able to kill the skirms and allow the spears to beat the pikes.

I am worried about archers too, and we are working on getting and RC4 (or RC5 if it is out then) game for this Sunday at 19 CET (same as before). I am hoping if we all use RC4 or RC5, then we are more likely to have the same version and we can do 2 or 3 games to see what the balance is like.

Edited August 5, 2021 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[Freagarach]

10 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

or RC5 if it is out then

 

[Player of 0AD]

For Mau and Pers you can look at archers as their nerf for their OP pop bonus.

Carthage has very strong p2 Mercenary cav, more mercenaries and Hannibal Barca, and Catapults etc... Looks still fine

Kushites have also nice options: Swordsmen, Pikemen, Champions, Nobas, Pyramids etc

[alre]

1 hour ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

@alre

One thing I noticed is that all ranged units seem to prefer attacking the melee vs melee battle rather than the skirmishers in the back even if you target them. What you see in the pike+skirm versus spear+archer situation is archers wind up shooting only the pikes, where they do negligible damage, and the skirms are able to out dps the spears to win the melee fight and then pass on to the archers.

My thinking is that if ranged units would "listen" to targeting orders, then the archers would be able to kill the skirms and allow the spears to beat the pikes.

I am worried about archers too, and we are working on getting and RC4 (or RC5 if it is out then) game for this Sunday at 19 CET (same as before). I am hoping if we all use RC4 or RC5, then we are more likely to have the same version and we can do 2 or 3 games to see what the balance is like.

changing preferred targets of archers from any organic unit to skirmishers seems like a nice off-the-charts idea to buff archers. I like it, but I don't know how effective that would be, we should make a mod and test it. That would be a very simple mod, but still, I don't think this is the right time to try new ideas.

10 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

For Mau and Pers you can look at archers as their nerf for their OP pop bonus.

Carthage has very strong p2 Mercenary cav, more mercenaries and Hannibal Barca, and Catapults etc... Looks still fine

Kushites have also nice options: Swordsmen, Pikemen, Champions, Nobas, Pyramids etc

how good was the "OP pop bonus" of persia and maurya in A23? Noone ever played persia, and maurya too were regarded as underdogs. People would complain that archers in general were too weak, and now they are going to be even weaker than then.

skirmisher civs are OP in this release candidate, I would bet on it.

[Gurken Khan]

14 minutes ago, alre said:

changing preferred targets of archers from any organic unit to skirmishers

Are skirmishers battle-bots? ;p

[a 0ad player]

Hello,
the archer vs skirmish balance for a25 interests me. I have listed my tryouts in the table below. I think the balance should be tested in a25 on a larger scale. Felt the archers are very slightly underpowered in the test.

I think cathago needs a buf. Cathager army has too little dps without viable counterbalance (pop bonus or other unit types, mercenaries too expensive and can do too little).

Procedure:
- a25 svn from 07/25
- Groups sorted with Closed Battle Order and then no default formation chosen.
- Skirmish group sent off by patrolling
- Number of surviving units entered in table
- all tech: blacksmith, Ford, CC (Persian vs. Briton)

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

2 hours ago, alre said:

skirmisher civs are OP in this release candidate, I would bet on it

My bet is Sparta 100% because of new spear technology and good heros and good skirmishers.

My thinking is that if we test RC5 this weekend and if we agree archers seem bad enough, then we can do an emergency balance correction so that a25 is at least fairly balanced when it comes out. I am in favor of something simple such as a little damage nerf for skirmishers, and/or a little buff for damage of archers.

[Stan`]

9 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

 

My thinking is that if we test RC5 this weekend and if we agree archers seem bad enough, then we can do an emergency balance correction so that a25 is at least fairly balanced when it comes out. I am in favor of something simple such as a little damage nerf for skirmishers, and/or a little buff for damage of archers.

I'd rather not have to make another RC for a last minute balancing change that could break it. So unless I have to remake one because of a terrible bug it will not happen.

Gotta leave things for A26

[ValihrAnt]

Are they really overcorrected? The only change for damage output is an increase in spread which can be canceled out by a blacksmith technology. Some of the archers civs also have a tech for extra range.

55 minutes ago, a 0ad player said:

Looking at this it seems quite clear that archers are still in a very strong position. I only did some tests now without upgrades to quickly verify that my numbers are similar and if data with upgrades is true then I'd rather think that archers deserve a further nerf rather than a buff. Also keep in mind that archers can easily provoke a fight and then never engage by simply running back to defensive buildings. In defensive situations in general they are far superior to other ranged units due to their range advantage and thus being able to fight from far behind a fort or CC.

P.S. You can't have archers with equal movement speed to units with lesser range. That's how you get the a23 camel archers. It wasn't a disaster for a24 because the major turn times made it impossible to hit and run, and only meant that overextending with archers was impossible to punish.

Edited August 5, 2021 by ValihrAnt
P.S.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

2 minutes ago, ValihrAnt said:

Looking at this it seems quite clear that archers are still in a very strong position. I only did some tests now without upgrades to quickly verify that my numbers are similar and if data with upgrades is true then I'd rather think that archers deserve a further nerf rather than a buff. Also keep in mind that archers can easily provoke a fight and then never engage by simply running back to defensive buildings. In defensive situations in general they are far superior to other ranged units due to their range advantage and thus being able to fight from far behind a fort or CC.

Yes, big agree. This is why we ought to play at least 5-6 games on RC5 before making a conclusion.

[Player of 0AD]

47 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

My bet is Sparta 100% because of new spear technology and good heros

Agis has left the chat : P

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

53 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

Agis has left the chat : P

don't worry the other two heroes are good enough, they don't need a third XD.

[alre]

1 hour ago, ValihrAnt said:

Are they really overcorrected? The only change for damage output is an increase in spread which can be canceled out by a blacksmith technology. Some of the archers civs also have a tech for extra range.

Looking at this it seems quite clear that archers are still in a very strong position. I only did some tests now without upgrades to quickly verify that my numbers are similar and if data with upgrades is true then I'd rather think that archers deserve a further nerf rather than a buff. Also keep in mind that archers can easily provoke a fight and then never engage by simply running back to defensive buildings. In defensive situations in general they are far superior to other ranged units due to their range advantage and thus being able to fight from far behind a fort or CC.

P.S. You can't have archers with equal movement speed to units with lesser range. That's how you get the a23 camel archers. It wasn't a disaster for a24 because the major turn times made it impossible to hit and run, and only meant that overextending with archers was impossible to punish.

lol. how comes than than camels are broken again, and archers are in a worse position than in A23?

1 hour ago, Stan` said:

I'd rather not have to make another RC for a last minute balancing change that could break it. So unless I have to remake one because of a terrible bug it will not happen.

Gotta leave things for A26

I feared that. However, is a tweak of two parameters really something that needs a further RC?

well I guess we will catch up in no-skirms TGs.

[Stan`]

17 minutes ago, alre said:

I feared that. However, is a tweak of two parameters really something that needs a further RC?

 

Well I need to run the 6hours process to make new installers for all platforms so sadly yes. Whether that RC becomes a release is another matter. Also the problem is what if the changes create another bigger imbalance. Release is scheduled for Sunday in theory.

[ValihrAnt]

9 minutes ago, alre said:

1 hour ago, ValihrAnt said:

Are they really overcorrected? The only change for damage output is an increase in spread which can be canceled out by a blacksmith technology. Some of the archers civs also have a tech for extra range.

Looking at this it seems quite clear that archers are still in a very strong position. I only did some tests now without upgrades to quickly verify that my numbers are similar and if data with upgrades is true then I'd rather think that archers deserve a further nerf rather than a buff. Also keep in mind that archers can easily provoke a fight and then never engage by simply running back to defensive buildings. In defensive situations in general they are far superior to other ranged units due to their range advantage and thus being able to fight from far behind a fort or CC.

P.S. You can't have archers with equal movement speed to units with lesser range. That's how you get the a23 camel archers. It wasn't a disaster for a24 because the major turn times made it impossible to hit and run, and only meant that overextending with archers was impossible to punish.

Expand  

lol. how comes than than camels are broken again, and archers are in a worse position than in A23?

Camels are nowhere near to their strength in A23. They now have lower move speed, less range and less accuracy. So javelin cavalry can actually catch them now and towers can actually range them, that's quite a big difference. To make it even worse, they can't harass food without being ranged by the CC anymore too.

And the same thing about archers. How can you say that they are worse than in A23 when just about everything is better for them now? Their lowered range and accuracy are remedied by technologies and otherwise they've got more damage, more speed, skirmishers being slower and no phase up bonuses which gave extra time for opposing units with greater dps to close the distance. As I said, I'd be more worried about them still being by far the strongest ranged infantry unit.

 

[Player of 0AD]

1 hour ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

don't worry the other two heroes are good enough, they don't need a third XD.

Leonidas is not good. Only spearmen, only 30m radius

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

14 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

Leonidas is not good. Only spearmen, only 30m radius

SaidRdz would say otherwise lol, this is even before the new sparta spear upgrade. Anyway in a25 so far a 30 m radius can contain very many units.

[Yekaterina]

In A25, if you just make your archers stand still in a formation, they will be mowed by javelins, cavalry or melee for sure. This even applies for players who use only archers and no melee in A24, but to a lesser extent.

However, in A25, if you make your archers dance or dodge the incoming melee units by formation change, then the enemy will be mowed by your arrows. 

1. Put archers in a close order, maybe moving them slightly

2. When the enemy melees and javelins charge in, split the formation into two equal parts and move them out of the way, opening a lane for their troops to walk into. 

3. Walk the archers sideways for 60 metres, then order the archers turn around and shoot, perhaps from 50 metres away, use melee units to keep the enemy busy, while emerging more melee from gaps in your archer formation, so that enemy javelins or melee can't reach your archers on the side. 

This is a difficult manoeuvre, but if you can pull it out successfully then it will make archers OP. 

 

Their range determines that archers are still very strong: use a large number of melee to engage enemy melee and javelins, then use the archers to outrange the enemy javelins. Perhaps they are not as OP as A24 but still not to be underestimated if they were used correctly. 

 

Plus, all archer civs have javelin cavalry. Just use that!

[Yekaterina]

3 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

SaidRdz would say otherwise lol, this is even before the new sparta spear upgrade. Anyway in a25 so far a 30 m radius can contain very many units.

SaidRdz's Spartan army lost to my Macedonian pikes + javelins on at least 2 occasions. But yes, in A25 there are too many things in merely 30m so it's hard to say. However, it seems that whoever's melee can survive for the longest wins. In this case the pikes will mow the Spartans again.  

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@Yekaterina so are you more worried about pikes being OP than archers being UP? I guess either way we will find out soon enough.

I think it is a good result that archers are still very poweful when used with some care and skill, rather than yeeting 120 of them across the map like in a24.