Lion.Kanzen Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 On 17/05/2021 at 12:41 AM, LetswaveaBook said: I think the problem is with the elephants. An Indian elephants can defeat 5 champion swordsmen. This means elephants are incredibly cost effective. I think it would be historically inaccurate to do this. This is bad. The maximum should be 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 1 hour ago, chrstgtr said: Totally off topic, but I agree. Right now players don't make sword because melee is generally used as a meatshield and no one wants to waste metal training units that never even make it to enemy lines. If swords are quicker then they would more quickly close the gap and engage in fighting where they could do real damage. I agree with this. even if they are technology upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetswaveaBook Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said: Right now players don't make sword because melee is generally used as a meatshield and no one wants to waste metal training units that never even make it to enemy lines. I think this might be the biggest issue for 0AD ballance. Ranged units are OP compared to most other CS. Sword cavalry seems to be the exception. Since CS ranged units are so good, the completely shape the balance. The only melee units that get commonly made are the ones that have a purpose against ranged units( That´s why I made a mod with weaker CS ranged units). However, as christ said, it is of completely topic. @Lion.Kanzen, do you have the power to split the conversation to another thread if applicable? Edited June 1, 2021 by LetswaveaBook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Player of 0AD Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 On 17/05/2021 at 8:41 AM, LetswaveaBook said: I think the problem is with the elephants. An Indian elephants can defeat 5 champion swordsmen. This means elephants are incredibly cost effective. I think it would be historically inaccurate to do this. In a row or in a 1v5? "In a row" does not matter too much, group fights are the thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 12 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said: @Lion.Kanzen, do you have the power to split the conversation to another thread if applicable? @Stan` have that power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetswaveaBook Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said: In a row or in a 1v5? "In a row" does not matter too much, group fights are the thing. 1v5, if the swordsmen need to spend a little time surrounding the elephant(like 1 or 2 seconds before they are all attacking). if they start with the elephant surrounded, I think 1 swordsmen survives with a few HP. If you have champion pikemen, it 1v7 and the elephant wins. I just ran a test. 1 asian elephant vs 5 swordsmen and the elephant survives with 5HP Edited June 1, 2021 by LetswaveaBook 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Player of 0AD Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 So elephants are OP. They should not receive armor upgrades (elephants wear neither shields nor armor for humans) and maybe not the will-to-fight-upgrade (didn't know that elephants have fighting moral as humans do). Plus, they should cost more metal again, similar to alpha23. And asian elephants should have at least a reduction of strength according to alpha23. And maybe elephants should also have a weakness against spearmen/pikemen like cavalry does? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 9 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said: And maybe elephants should also have a weakness against spearmen/pikemen like cavalry does? the problem was when a separate template was made for the elephants and camels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrstgtr Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said: And maybe elephants should also have a weakness against spearmen/pikemen like cavalry does? I've always liked how pierce countered ele and hack countered rams. It requires players to have diverse units in order to properly fend off attacks (i.e., having ele and rams be vulnerable to different types of attacks discourages single unit spam). Edited June 1, 2021 by chrstgtr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 Wraitii said that they returned the counter of the units with spear and pike against elephants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wraitii Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 If there is a specific topic for A25, please start a thread in the balancing discussions subform or make a diff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetswaveaBook Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 18 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said: Wraitii said that they returned the counter of the units with spear and pike against elephants. I hope that this will not be in A25. it is historically inaccurate and there is another issue. Siege towers should be weak against infantry swordsmen, but the swordsmen get killed from range so the counter system does not work out. If elephants are supposed to be killed by spear units, then just as the infantry swordsmen, they get killed from range. The pikemen might be useful though most civs do not have pikes. What I think to be the best solution is to increase elephant cost and reduce its crush damage. It should not be an organic ram. But again, this thread is about true siege weapons, not about elephants. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyrrhicVictoryGuy Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 Is it just me who thinks the stone thrower ballista feels meh, even bad? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 21 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said: I hope that this will not be in A25. it is historically inaccurate and there is another issue. Siege towers should be weak against infantry swordsmen, but the swordsmen get killed from range so the counter system does not work out. If elephants are supposed to be killed by spear units, then just as the infantry swordsmen, they get killed from range. The pikemen might be useful though most civs do not have pikes. What I think to be the best solution is to increase elephant cost and reduce its crush damage. It should not be an organic ram. But again, this thread is about true siege weapons, not about elephants. You can voice your opinion here https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4048 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrstgtr Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 1 minute ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said: Is it just me who thinks the stone thrower ballista feels meh, even bad? No, they're terrible. But there are fixes on the way. https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3781 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyrrhicVictoryGuy Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 oh well we'll see in A25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 5 hours ago, wraitii said: If there is a specific topic for A25, please start a thread in the balancing discussions subform or make a diff. We need @Stan` split the topic and move it there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekaterina Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 8 hours ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said: Is it just me who thinks the stone thrower ballista feels meh, even bad? Ballista and oxybeles shouldn't be vulnerable to arrows at least. Also their minimum range is ridiculous. Maybe decrease that to 10 metres and it would be balanced. Their damage seems fine. Rate of fire and packing are acceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 10 minutes ago, Yekaterina said: Ballista and oxybeles shouldn't be vulnerable to arrows at least. Also their minimum range is ridiculous. Maybe decrease that to 10 metres and it would be balanced. Their damage seems fine. Rate of fire and packing are acceptable. Add that to my mod, from this mod we are going to make patches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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