Look of the athenian champions

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Elite Infantry Spearman on the left; Epilektos Champion Spearman on the right.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

My idea. Let's keep it simple, shall we? 

To differentiate the Epilektos from other champion spearmen, let's make them have -1 all armor types, but +10% speed, +20% attack range, and +10% attack. I can make a slightly longer hoplite spear for them and also resize a smaller aspis for them.

I don't think a champion needs to necessarily look more armored than an elite citizen unit, especially since if they historically did not necessarily wear more armor.

If you want to change the name, then I am open. In the old days we had to make it simple, and the "Ekdromos" didn't seem like a good fit for a champion, hence the genesis of the Epilektos (and the Marine) which combined the aspects of the Picked Hoplite and Iphicratean reforms.

Edited March 16, 2022 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Outis]

6 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

To differentiate the Epilektos from other champion spearmen, let's make them have -1 all armor types, but +10% speed, +20% attack range, and +10% attack. I can make a slightly longer hoplite spear for them and also resize a smaller aspis for them.

(All) Greek hoplites were better armored than their opponents with the large shields and body armor. I prefer not to see Athenian Hoplites have less armor than Carthaginian Sacred Band or Persian Immortals. I will still settle for it if they beat all other champion spearmen except Spartiates and Hypaspists .

6 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I don't think a champion needs to necessarily look more armored than an elite citizen unit, especially since if they historically did not necessarily wear more armor.

Better warriors are more likely to capture or be able to afford better armor, but I agree it is not necessarily a rule. 

6 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

If you want to change the name, then I am open. In the old days we had to make it simple, and the "Ekdromos" didn't seem like a good fit for a champion, hence the genesis of the Epilektos (and the Marine) which combined the aspects of the Picked Hoplite and Iphicratean reforms.

Please don't change the name from Epilektos. It fits perfectly .

About Scythian Archers; I really think they should remain as archers rather than use clubs. They may be using clubs for policing the citizenry, but the game does not have civic order in its scope. Regardless of their peacetime equipment, they will pick up their bows against the enemy, just as citizen soldiers working as lumberjacks drop their axes and pick up their spears. Please don't separate them from their bows.

[wackyserious]

What about player colored linen cuirass? and colorful tunics with player color accent? I made these before as prototype concept for the mercenary hoplites

[Outis]

7 hours ago, wackyserious said:

What about player colored linen cuirass? and colorful tunics with player color accent? I made these before as prototype concept for the mercenary hoplites

Nice 

[Carltonus]

On 16/3/2022 at 9:49 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

This was not part of my request though, but we can see the huge difference between the Athenian elite and champion hoplite.

It was actually about the proposed champion hoplite/skirmisher hybrid in the sketch (not the colored one which depicts the "Epilektos") in the first page of this thread:

With the intention of bringing back the stoa thureophoros (champion skirmisher) from Alpha 23, in a way, when secondary attacks become a thing.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Carltonus
Adding image

[Carltonus]

Pardon the double post, here is an illustration of an Iphicratean peltast as an early form of pikeman:

...from a Russian-language forum.

[Genava55]

Diodorus Siculus, 15.44.3 : It will not be out of place to set forth what I have learned about the remarkable character of Iphicrates. For he is reported to have possessed shrewdness in command and to have enjoyed an exceptional natural genius for every kind of useful invention. Hence we are told, after he had acquired his long experience of military operations in the Persian War, he devised many improvements in the tools of war, devoting himself especially to the matter of arms. For instance, the Greeks were using shields which were large and consequently difficult to handle; these he discarded and made small oval ones (peltas summetrous) of moderate size, thus successfully achieving both objects, to furnish the body with adequate cover and to enable the user of the small shield, on account of its lightness, to be completely free in his movements. After a trial of the new shield its easy manipulation secured its adoption, and the infantry who had formerly been called "hoplites" because of their heavy shield, then had their name changed to "peltasts" from the light pelta they carried. As regards spear and sword, he made changes in the contrary direction: namely, he increased the length of the spears by half, and made the swords almost twice as long. The actual use of these arms confirmed the initial test and from the success of the experiment won great fame for the inventive genius of the general. He made soldiers' boots that were easy to untie and light and they continue to this day to be called "iphicratids" after him. He also introduced many other useful improvements into warfare, but it would be tedious to write about them. So the Persian expedition against Egypt, for all its huge preparations, disappointed expectations and proved a failure in the end.

Cornelius Nepos, Life of Iphicrates: Iphicrates of Athens has become renowned, not so much for the greatness of his exploits, as for his knowledge of military tactics; for he was such a leader, that he was not only comparable to the first commanders of his own time, but no one even of the older generals could be set above him. He was much engaged in the field; he often had. the command of armies; he never miscarried in an undertaking by his own fault; he was always eminent for invention, and such was his excellence in it, that he not only introduced much that was new into the military art, but made many improvements in what existed before. He altered the arms of the infantry; for whereas, before he became a commander, they used very large shields, short spears, and small swords, he, on the contrary, introduced the pelta instead of the parma (from which the infantry were afterwards called peltastae), that they might be more active in movements and encounters; he doubled the length of the spear, and made the swords also longer. He likewise changed the character of their cuirasses, and gave them linen ones instead of those of metal; a change by which he rendered the soldiers more active; for, diminishing the weight, he provided what would equally protect the body, and be light.

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Genava55

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

It's unfortunate that the sources don't go into details such as how those troops were used and how the longer spear was wielded. 

[alre]

one can suppose they were used not differently than classic hoplites, hence the omission.

[Carltonus]

I'm now seeing a few red flags regarding changeset 27779: the elite hoplite can now promote to epilektos, which makes not much sense. The latter, so-called "champion hoplite", is a by-product of the Iphicratean reforms, from the change of gear. Why overlook this in the name of balancing? Still waiting for the possible name change of technology and/or correction, as well as the reintroduction of champion javelineers.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Carltonus said:

as well as the reintroduction of champion javelineers

What's the historical justification of that one? 

[Carltonus]

Just read the previous posts... overlooked; whose idea was putting the stoa "thureophoros" generic champion javelineer (and the thorakites swordsman) for the Hellenic factions until around Alpha 24?