gameplay Wonders seem unfocused and unnecessary

[Palaxin]

3 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

I would be much more willing to build a wonder for a special unit instead of some boring +xx% bonus

The most iconic units are already in the game. E.g. it would be stupid to have Spartan hoplites only with a wonder, but there is (and should) not a better unit for Spartans than hoplites. Furthermore, new special units for each civ would need much more balance tweaking. My point was that depending on the special circumstance you are in game, you may not even profit much of a new special unit if it doesn't fit your situation and playstyle...

I understand wonders could be made more exciting. I assumed to find a relatively simple solution that can be implemented and agreed within a relatively short timeframe, ready for the next release. I agree we lack changes on an overall perspective that takes the whole gameplay into account, but any attempts into that direction failed in the last years.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, Palaxin said:

The most iconic units are already in the game. E.g. it would be stupid to have Spartan hoplites only with a wonder, but there is (and should) not a better unit for Spartans than hoplites. Furthermore, new special units for each civ would need much more balance tweaking. My point was that depending on the special circumstance you are in game, you may not even profit much of a new special unit if it doesn't fit your situation and playstyle...

I understand wonders could be made more exciting. I assumed to find a relatively simple solution that can be implemented and agreed within a relatively short timeframe, ready for the next release. I agree we lack changes on an overall perspective that takes the whole gameplay into account, but any attempts into that direction failed in the last years.

and why not for example train commanders or generals who are not heroes ... and special units in the wonder and in the fortress.

[Grapjas]

5 minutes ago, Palaxin said:

The most iconic units are already in the game. E.g. it would be stupid to have Spartan hoplites only with a wonder, but there is (and should) not a better unit for Spartans than hoplites. Furthermore, new special units for each civ would need much more balance tweaking. My point was that depending on the special circumstance you are in game, you may not even profit much of a new special unit if it doesn't fit your situation and playstyle...

With a unique unit i actually meant a new unit. Just because it's unique doesnt mean it has to be strong though in terms of attack/defense. I think there can be quite a number of unique units still be added to the game if you're not looking purely for military units. In fact, utility units is exactly what this game kind of lacks. Just an opinion though.

However, avoiding adding units because you have to do more balance work sounds like dodging work to me

[Nescio]

Ideally I'd like to see each wonder give an unique bonus.

[borg-]

9 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Ideally I'd like to see each wonder give an unique bonus.

An idea would also be to potentialize one or more existing bonuses for civilization.

[Palaxin]

2 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

With a unique unit i actually meant a new unit.

I got that. I just cannot think of 13 units where each of them

• is new
• fits to their respective civilization (maybe you didn't mean that by unique)
• is so game changing that they deserve a wonder to be built

6 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

Just because it's unique doesnt mean it has to be strong though in terms of attack/defense. [...] In fact, utility units is exactly what this game kind of lacks. Just an opinion though.

Agree, we could integrate more utility units into the game. But I would expect more from a wonder than utility...

12 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

I think there can be quite a number of unique units still be added to the game if you're not looking purely for military units

Maybe you can list some, then I won't guess and misunderstand anymore...

13 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

However, avoiding adding units because you have to do more balance work sounds like dodging work to me

If you talk about my badge - I am glad I received it, but I'm still no dev team member and independently from that it is a bit out of place to derive work obligations from that...

Furthermore, under economic aspects (value to effort ratio so to speak): the proposed technologies could be provided in a matter of hours... Whereas designing 13 new units is only possible if there is collaboration of several people (with most likely at least 1 dev team member)...

As I said I wanted to provide a solution that is feasible in the current environment of gameplay/balance development. I have seen too many theories, wishes, proposals that just added to the pile because no one was there to implement them.

[chrstgtr]

1 hour ago, Palaxin said:

What about instead of the population bonus, wonders allow you to research one of three (cf. heroes) possible endgame technologies that are designed to end a close match:

• economic boost: 1500 food, 1000 metal, 500 wood
  for women: +50% carry capacity and gather rate, +25% construction/repair/walking speed
  for citizen soldiers: +25% carry capacity and gather rate
• defensive boost: 1500 stone, 1000 wood, 500 metal
  for buildings: +25% HP, capture points and capture regen rate, +5 HP/s regeneration
  for units: +25% HP, +1 HP/s regeneration
• offensive boost: 1500 metal, 1000 food, 500 wood
  for units (including siege engines, ships): +30% attack and +15% speed

The only one that would really be useful is offensive boost (economic boost won't help because if you can build a wonder and research the tech then resource scarcity isn't an issue and defensive boost doesn't make sense because if you are at risk of losing your base then you almost certainly can't afford a wonder and its tech). 

 

Other suggestions in this thread like unlocking additional units doesn't sound like much a boost (most civs share multiple common units already and getting a few extra unit types isn't going to be much help whereas extra pop is a huge boost). 

I would like the option of offensive boost and/or a pop boost. Honestly a lot of other discussion in this thread sounds like it should either be already implemented in other aspects (i.e. giving civs more differentiating factors), already are in the game (wonder victory condition is already an option, so why would we delete a useful construct to make something that we already have as an option standard and limit player choice) or will not be nearly as worthwhile a benefit as the current as the simple pop benefit that it currently gives (bribing traders isn't done right now because it isn't very useful). 

[Palaxin]

16 minutes ago, borg- said:

An idea would also be to potentialize one or more existing bonuses for civilization.

and/or for heroes

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

26 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Ideally I'd like to see each wonder give an unique bonus.

I'd say a "standard" bonus or effect for all Wonders (because as a "class" of structure they collectively mean something special), and then a "unique" bonus or effect for each civ. Perhaps building a Wonder and clicking the special tech button launches a choice UI (similar to Delenda Est's hero choice dialogue or Age of Mythology's minor god UI) that the player can now choose their bonus.

So, all Wonders = +10% to pop cap (or whatever), then if you click the special tech button in the Wonder UI you get a popup with these choices:

Carthage = Choose Triple Walls bonus (all existing Stone Walls--except gates--+300% health) or unlock Xanthippus of Sparta hero that benefits mercenaries greatly.

Athenians = Choose "Delian League" bonus, whatever that is, or "Iphicratean Reforms" whatever that is.

et al.

Point is, you get some choice and this choice is done in a special way that no other choice in the game is presented. 

[Palaxin]

Sounds like a good middle ground. So if there really are some missed units @Grapjas can think of, we can implement them here and there, but we can also have more generic bonuses.

I don't remember who brought up the point earlier, but I can understand from a competitive point of view that it is very time consuming to first build the wonder and then wait until the technology is researched. So maybe the bonuses should be made available instantly after you selected them - we could still balance costs and build time of the wonder itself if necessary. That way the completion of the wonder itself feels impactful and not just a way of enabling further options in the future.

EDIT: it was @chrstgtr

2 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

Although they are less useful in a24 than before because they no longer give the the auto +10 pop bonus, so no real benefit occurs for at least 2 minutes after building even if you assume resource scarcity isn't a problem (although it usually is). So now it takes a long time to get the resources to build the wonder, a long time to get resources for the tech, and a long time to research the tech before you get any benefit.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Palaxin

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 minute ago, Palaxin said:

Sounds like a good middle ground. So if there really are some missed units @Grapjas can think of, we can implement them here and there, but we can also have more generic bonuses.

I don't remember who brought up the point earlier, but I can understand from a competitive point of view that it is very time consuming to first build the wonder and then wait until the technology is researched. So maybe the bonuses should be made available instantly after you selected them - we could still balance costs and build time of the wonder itself if necessary. That way the completion of the wonder itself feels impactful and not just a way of enabling further options in the future.

Right. In my choice idea whatever you choose happens immediately so that it can have immediate effects on the match once the player acts. 

[Grapjas]

39 minutes ago, Palaxin said:

If you talk about my badge

Nah not at all, alot of work can be done by even one person and there are numerous examples of this right here on this forum by many modders, i was simply generally speaking and not meant offensive. However i do understand that what i'm proposing involves alot more work then slapping a simple buff on something. Being ambitious isnt bad though, and often overthinking things (adding all the negatives) can make sure progress will barely get made. 

As for some unique unit: Something like an engineer for rome could be interesting. Or maybe unlocking a tech that lets units build roads that increases walking speed of units for faster military mobilization. There is likely much more to be found for each civ that could be added when digging a little deeper but i guess you get the point. 

56 minutes ago, Palaxin said:

the proposed technologies could be provided in a matter of hours...

Don't really think you have to have something ready in hours as A25 as far as i know is not around the corner tbh (but i understand there are more tasks). Besides, civ uniqueness has become a hot topic, adding a unique unit/tech could do well. But honestly it's not just a matter of whether it's possible, it's also about willingness to work on it. 

[alre]

In some AoE, when a player starts building a wonder, everyone gets to know it, and where is being built. This makes wonders feel a lot more special, and adds a unique variation in gameplay. I always wondered why is 0 ad different in this. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, alre said:

In some AoE, when a player starts building a wonder, everyone gets to know it, and where is being built. This makes wonders feel a lot more special, and adds a unique variation in gameplay. I always wondered why is 0 ad different in this. 

The task of doing that is very relevant, so I need a bit of programming, and we have definitely lacked sound engineers in a long time.