===[COMMITTED]=== Iberian Unit Textures

[Duileoga]

Posdata; También le podrían poner unas diferentes estéticas , diferenciando su estatus social ...

[Genava55]

Los pueblos prerromanos de la península Ibérica (pdf), descargar aqui.

[av93]

23 hours ago, Duileoga said:

-Buenas , no estoy seguro que significan esos símbolos intermediarios pero para dar una rápida explicación ; Los Lusitanos e iberos no son iguales , ambos son pueblos Pre-indoeuropeos si , pero vivían en diferentes regiones;(Lusitanos=Gran parte de Portugal y fronterizas con España ),(Íberos=Toda la costa mediterránea desde Andalucía-España y Sur de Francia-Rosellón), además con diferencias culturales como que los Lusitanos eran más ganaderos y con influencia celta y los Íberos más agrarios y con influencias fenicias y griegas .

Disculpen las molestias.

=/= es un igual tachado, o sea, no igual.

 

22 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Por ahora no es posible separar a todas las tribus por razones practicas del juego.

Differentiating every tribe on the broader cultures that we have now doesn't have sense, when more diverse civs or with unique gameplay elements could be added (Germans, Scytians, Han, some desert North Africa civ, an Arabian one..) but devs have said that there won't be adding more civs.

But my point is to make proper Iberians without mixed celts or Lusitianian features. to avoid this common misrepresentation, all the guerrilla warfare should be kicked (and maybe given to Britons) because was a Lusitianian thing, while Iberians have a phalanx style warfare, supported by light cav (there was a topic on that in the forum). The master elite slinger cliche also seems that should go with balearic units (not Iberians)

Edited January 7, 2020 by av93

[Lion.Kanzen]

47 minutes ago, av93 said:

=/= es un igual tachado, o sea, no igual.

 

Differentiating every tribe on the broader cultures that we have now doesn't have sense, when more diverse civs or with unique gameplay elements could be added (Germans, Scytians, Han, some deser North Africa civ, an Arabian one..) but devs have said that there won't be adding more civs.

But my point is to make proper Iberians without mixed celts or Lusitianian features. to avoid this common misrepresentation, all the guerrilla warfare should be kicked (and maybe given to Britons) because was a Lusitianian thing, while Iberians have a phalanx style warfare, supported by light cav (there was a topic on that in the forum). The master elite slinger cliche also seems that should go with balearic units (not Iberians)

El equipo lo quiere dejar en 13 por ahora las fracciones, tema de balance.

De alli cada facción debe completar las unidades mínimas

Heroes..

Y lo más difícil: Una maravilla..

[Duileoga]

14 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

El equipo lo quiere dejar en 13 por ahora las fracciones, tema de balance.

De alli cada facción debe completar las unidades mínimas

Heroes..

Y lo más difícil: Una maravilla..

-Buenas , estuve revisando la facción de los íberos y para hacerla históricamente más fiel a ser posible , vi que los héroes de la facción y también los nombres de los líderes que aparecen cuando te enfrentas a la máquina , todos menos Indíbil no son íberos;

-"Viriato"(Lusitano),"Caro de Segeda"( Celtíbero),"Tautalus"(Lusitano),"Ditalco"(Turdetano),"Minuro"(Turdetano) y "Audax"(Turdetano).

Fuentes;

http://arquehistoria.com/fueron-celtas-los-lusitanos-17937

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minuro

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caro_de_Segeda

-De ahí que les presente estos posibles líderes íberos para ser los héroes de la facción;  "Indíbil "(tribu "Ilergetes" o "Iltirgesquios" -tribu íbera en Cataluña-),"Mandonio "(tribu"Ausetanos"-tribu íbera en Cataluña-) y "Orisón"(tribu"Oretanos"-tribu íbera de Castilla la Mancha -).

Fuentes;

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revuelta_de_Indíbil_y_Mandonio
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orisón

(interesante leer sobre los toros con fuego en los cuernos de Orisón ).

("Indíbil" y "Mandonio")

("Estatuas" Indíbil es el que tiene barba y bigote , el otro es mandonio)
 

-Como recomendación , es difícil encontrar el origen étnico de muchos lideres de la Península Ibérica prerromana , por eso yo pondría el nombre solo de las tribus iberas (para evitar ambigüedad) cuando te enfrentas a la máquina(podrían hacer lo mismo con los Galos y los Britanos) .Ni los Túrdulos ni los Turdetanos  son íberos , solo tienen influencia cultural , ya que son los descendientes de la antigua cultura de Tartessos .Los Lobetanos tampoco son íbero, ellos eran Celtiberos.

Tribus íberas ; Contestanos ,ilercavones , Ausescos , Sordones , Lacetanos , Castelanos , Bástulos , Indigesquios , Eisdetes/Edetanos , Layeskos , Contestanos ,Oretanos , iltirgeskios ,Jacetanos, Ceretanos , Cosetanos y Sedeskios . 

Fuentes;

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosetanos
http://www.cazarabet.com/pais/kms/pais31/traslospasos.htm (mirar su mapa)

-Luego , respecto al tema de "La Maravilla" , busqué y encontré un curioso yacimiento ; El palacio íbero en Jaén (Andalucía) de "Puente Tablas". Así cambiarían la actual maravilla de origen de la cultura de -Tartessos-; "Cancho Roano"(que no es íbero). 

Mirar el vídeo exactamente entre los minutos 1:48 y 2:21 ,pero recomiendo ver los escasos 7 minutos que dura y merece la pena

 

pero recomiendo ver los escasos 7 minutos que dura que creo que merece la pena.

(Posdata; para las posibles  estructuras especiales ; "Betilo", "silo" , "cisterna" y una "necrópolis"(+ además del ya existente -Monumento reverencial- o "Gur Oroigarri").

 

Disculpen las molestias.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

Seria bueno hacer un listado en formato lista.

• Quote

   

  • Un nombre
  • Segundo nombre..
  • Asi...

   

   

Como arriba.

Les llamamos ìberos porque es muy largo llamarlos "tribus de la peninsula ibérica pre romana " si tienes un nombre más corto seria bueno ponerlo y sustituir Ìberos.

 

Al principio nuestros griegos y celtas eran una sola facción.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Lion.Kanzen

[Duileoga]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Seria bueno hacer un listado en formato lista.

•  

Como arriba.

Les llamamos ìberos porque es muy largo llamarlos "tribus de la peninsula ibérica pre romana " si tienes un nombre más corto seria bueno ponerlo y sustituir Ìberos.

 

Al principio nuestros griegos y celtas eran una sola facción.

-Buenas , no tengo seguridad de lo que me dice , pero creo que es esto;

Posibles unidades de héroes íberos ;

- Indíbil (Ilergetes o Iltirgesquios)

-Mandonio (Ausetanos) 

-Orisón(Oretano).

Tribus íberas;

1)-Contestanos

2)-ilercavones 

3)-Ausescos

4)-Sordones

5)-Lacetanos

6)-Castelanos

7)-Bástulos 

8)-Indigesquios

9)-Eisdetes/Edetanos 

10)-Layeskos

11)-Contestanos

12)-Oretanos 

13)-iltirgeskios

14)-Jacetanos

15)-Ceretanos

16)-Cosetanos

17)-Sedeskios . 

Posible Maravilla para los íberos;

Palacio íbero del yacimiento de Puente Tablas (Jaén)

-Mirar concretamente los minutos ; (1:48 - 2:21)

 

 

Disculpen las molestias.

 

[Duileoga]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Seria bueno hacer un listado en formato lista.

•  

Como arriba.

Les llamamos ìberos porque es muy largo llamarlos "tribus de la peninsula ibérica pre romana " si tienes un nombre más corto seria bueno ponerlo y sustituir Ìberos.

 

Al principio nuestros griegos y celtas eran una sola facción.

Posdata;

La Península Ibérica siempre a sido un mosaico de diversidad de culturas y creo que existe suficiente información como para no generalizar a todos esos pueblos (indoeuropeos , pre-indoeuropeos , mediterráneos...), e intentar crear algunas facciones como ; Lusitanos , celtíberos , vascones ,célticos y turdetanos (si acaso es  posible), para ser históricamente más fieles(cosa que este juego está logrando.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Dale un vistazo a esto, es el tópico  de arte 3D

Alexandermb tmb habla español.

[Lion.Kanzen]

8 minutes ago, Duileoga said:

Posdata;

La Península Ibérica siempre a sido un mosaico de diversidad de culturas y creo que existe suficiente información como para no generalizar a todos esos pueblos (indoeuropeos , pre-indoeuropeos , mediterráneos...), e intentar crear algunas facciones como ; Lusitanos , celtíberos , vascones ,célticos y turdetanos (si acaso es  posible), para ser históricamente más fieles(cosa que este juego está logrando.

Aquí esta nuestro documento de diseño, puedes usarlo como base.

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Civ%3A_Iberians

Ya hay un post sobre los lusitanos.

[Duileoga]

41 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Dale un vistazo a esto, es el tópico  de arte 3D

Alexandermb tmb habla español.

Posdata; ¿En este foro hay mucha gente que hable español?

[Lion.Kanzen]

Alexandermb

Trinketos

Enrique (no entra mucho fue líder de arte)

Gallaecio (nos ayuda a traducir y otras cosas de programacion)

Juli51 (ilustra edificios bastante bien, pero ha participado poco).

Av93 

Stockfish (de los mejores jugadores en el multi)

obskurias

 

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Lion.Kanzen

[Duileoga]

On 1/5/2020 at 5:06 AM, wackyserious said:

Iberian female citizens.

¡Buenas! le traigo una investigación un poco más profunda sobre las mujeres íberas;

 

Fuentes; 

mujeres íberas;

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indumentaria_ibera
https://blogs.20minutos.es/ciencia-para-llevar-csic/2016/05/03/asi-se-vestian-los-iberos/
http://damadeelche.me/mujeres-iberas/
http://damadeelche.me/ninas-vestidas-de-mujeres-iberas/
https://identidadaragonesa.wordpress.com/2018/11/06/lakuerter-ibera-la-fiesta-recreacionista-de-andorra/
http://www.moixent.es/es/report/vive-un-fin-semana-iberos
https://www.dival.es/es/sala-prensa/content/la-diputacion-renueva-su-ayuda-la-bastida-de-les-alcusses
http://www.viuvalencia.com/articulo/moixent_bastida_alcusses_iberos_jornadas/434821194
https://www.fiestashistoricas.es/feria-ibera-de-barchin-del-hoyo/
https://www.experienciaiberadamadebaza.es/blog/
http://institucional.us.es/revistas/habis/8/14 bandera romero.pdf 
 

[Duileoga]

Velo, manto y túnica son los tres elementos del traje femenino ibero.

---El velo a veces se confunde con el manto, aunque el triangular que cubre la parte posterior de la cabeza y llega hasta los hombros es inconfundible. Hay, además, un velo propio de las "sacerdotisas" que va sobre la mitra o la peineta y llega hasta los muslos.
---El manto es la última pieza de la vestimenta. Consiste en una pesada prenda que cubre los hombros, la espalda y los brazos de la figura. Es la prenda que envuelve toda la figura llegando hasta los pies, que aparece sobre todo en las estatuas de piedra. Se clasifican los mantos en rectangulares, semicirculares y con mangas.
Los rectangulares se separan según su tamaño y su forma de sujeción.
Los semicirculares se distinguen en abiertos y cerrados.
---Se distinguen también hasta cuatro tipos de túnica, traje de mangas cortas que cubre toda la figura hasta los tobillos, atendiendo a la forma de terminar la prenda. Aunque tienen parecidos con prendas similares de la cuenca del Mediterráneo, su origen parece local.
Hay, además, toda una serie de adornos que servían para realzar la belleza de las mujeres iberas, destacando entre ellos los variados collares de las grandes Damas (Elche, Baza y El Cerro de los Santos) y los también abundantes de los bronces y terracotas. También son frecuentes los cinturones, pendientes, brazaletes y pulseras.
 

[Duileoga]

 

Espero haber ayudado y disculpen las molestias 

[Lion.Kanzen]

@wackyserious

[Ultimate Aurelian]

On 1/4/2020 at 11:13 PM, wackyserious said:

Elite rank scutarii/scutarius

 

On 1/5/2020 at 7:59 PM, wackyserious said:

 

 

I looked up the Iberian scale armors, only source seems to be this vase (Which may be quilted armor).

Thread on EB forum regarding the topic:

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?797309-Iberian-Linen-armor

Quote in the thread, from a historian:

Spoiler

“The passive defensive weapons depicted on the Vessel (armour, helmets) present other problems. The horses on this vessel are represented using a conventional filler pattern to indicate their coat, which was previously misinterpreted by A. McBride, a great foreign artist but one with little knowledge about Hispanic archaeological realities, as scale or mail armour. His magnificent drawings were later imitated by others (for example, Alcaide and Vela) and have created—above all among amateurs— the idea of a cataphract “armoured” cavalry, which never existed in Iberia, nor in all the Mediterranean region in this period. Even in the far-off Persian world, during this period there was only some much lighter barding in use.

All the figures on the Vessel wear a type of coselete (light armour vest), perhaps with sleeves made from another material. The part which covers the chest (sometimes down to the diaphragm, sometimes to the belly) is covered with a scaled pattern which has caused many to think of metallic protection. Moreover, the lower abdomen is covered with what, without doubt, appears to be pteryges, hanging strips of organic material (usually leather or linen) which gave the wearer a certain degree of protection without restricting their movement. They seem to be wearing some type of metallic armour of which there were a great variety in use from Greece to the south of Gall via Italy. The majority of those who support this theory – including the aforementioned artist– believe that the Vessel depicts scaled armour. This type of armour was usually made up of small plates, normally made of bronze, sewn onto a textile support. It is a type of armour well-known in the western Mediterranean and Asia from the Bronze Age, and to a far lesser extent in Greece during the Iron Age. However, in Iberia (as in the Celtic world) no scaled armour of this type is known, nor represented on other media (sculptures, offerings, or even other ceramics). It was rare even in Italy, and in the classical Greek world it was used only occasionally as a complement to a type of textile armour (linothorax). But at the end of the third century neither the Carthaginians nor Romans appear to have used this type of protection; the legionaries in particular, as Polybius says (VI, 23, 14-15), wore a small bronze square on their chest at the most, and only the most affluent wore a coat of iron chainmail. This second option —the coat of mail— has also been suggested for the warriors, but these coats of mail from the 3rd to 2nd centuries BCE did not have pteryges and were furthermore an absolutely rarity in Iberia. Moreover, the decorative pattern used on the Vessel does not seem to be that for ring-woven mail, which is usually depicted in a different way in the visual arts.

Finally, other authors have suggested armour made from bronze sheets, small rectangular plates sewn together, of which there is no iconographic or archaeological evidence in Iberia and which was not used – or barely used– in the central Mediterranean region in this period. Moreover, plate armour is normally depicted in a much simpler way using a pattern of small squares or rectangles. Only the penultimate infantryman has his entire torso covered by a pattern of crossed lines forming small diamonds (which only cover the abdomen and belly of the rest of the figures), but the diagonal lines would not be adequate to represent plate amour, whose lines are clearly vertical and horizontal,and are represented in this way on some small Etruscan offerings, for example.

The most probable explanation is that the warriors are wearing a type of quilted protection, more likely made from textile than leather. In fact, the scale pattern was, for example, used on Greek ceramics to represent both metal scales and organic protective wear (the aegis or skin of AmaltheaÂ’s goat which protected Athena) and even the wings of deities such as Thanatos and Hypnos, such as on the famous vessel decorated by the painter Euphronios. In fact, Anderson explained many years ago that the scales in Greek black-figure paintings were normally used to indicate “hair on a hide... or even as a decorative motif on cloth”.

 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Genava55]

21 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Quote in the thread, from a historian:

Trarco is as well the new leader of the Lusitanians and Celtiberians factions design for Europa Barbarorum. I confirm he is a true boss on the topic.

[wackyserious]

8 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

 

I looked up the Iberian scale armors, only source seems to be this vase (Which may be quilted armor).

We do have quilted armor versions of that protective vest.

[wackyserious]

Tweaked the chainmail and added spec map. Also organizing unit actor files to help visually identify each unit of the faction unit roster.

[wackyserious]

A actor file concept for Caros, one of the heroes of the faction. The texture and props for the unit are outdated.

Tagging @Genava55 and other individuals who might want to help in updating the hero actor file.

[wackyserious]

I think this is much closer to the previous one. A baked round cardiopylax could be added over his padded cloth armor.

[wackyserious]

On 20/08/2020 at 2:47 AM, Ultimate Aurelian said:

 

I looked up the Iberian scale armors, only source seems to be this vase (Which may be quilted armor).

Thread on EB forum regarding the topic:

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?797309-Iberian-Linen-armor

Quote in the thread, from a historian:

  Hide contents

“The passive defensive weapons depicted on the Vessel (armour, helmets) present other problems. The horses on this vessel are represented using a conventional filler pattern to indicate their coat, which was previously misinterpreted by A. McBride, a great foreign artist but one with little knowledge about Hispanic archaeological realities, as scale or mail armour. His magnificent drawings were later imitated by others (for example, Alcaide and Vela) and have created—above all among amateurs— the idea of a cataphract “armoured” cavalry, which never existed in Iberia, nor in all the Mediterranean region in this period. Even in the far-off Persian world, during this period there was only some much lighter barding in use.

All the figures on the Vessel wear a type of coselete (light armour vest), perhaps with sleeves made from another material. The part which covers the chest (sometimes down to the diaphragm, sometimes to the belly) is covered with a scaled pattern which has caused many to think of metallic protection. Moreover, the lower abdomen is covered with what, without doubt, appears to be pteryges, hanging strips of organic material (usually leather or linen) which gave the wearer a certain degree of protection without restricting their movement. They seem to be wearing some type of metallic armour of which there were a great variety in use from Greece to the south of Gall via Italy. The majority of those who support this theory – including the aforementioned artist– believe that the Vessel depicts scaled armour. This type of armour was usually made up of small plates, normally made of bronze, sewn onto a textile support. It is a type of armour well-known in the western Mediterranean and Asia from the Bronze Age, and to a far lesser extent in Greece during the Iron Age. However, in Iberia (as in the Celtic world) no scaled armour of this type is known, nor represented on other media (sculptures, offerings, or even other ceramics). It was rare even in Italy, and in the classical Greek world it was used only occasionally as a complement to a type of textile armour (linothorax). But at the end of the third century neither the Carthaginians nor Romans appear to have used this type of protection; the legionaries in particular, as Polybius says (VI, 23, 14-15), wore a small bronze square on their chest at the most, and only the most affluent wore a coat of iron chainmail. This second option —the coat of mail— has also been suggested for the warriors, but these coats of mail from the 3rd to 2nd centuries BCE did not have pteryges and were furthermore an absolutely rarity in Iberia. Moreover, the decorative pattern used on the Vessel does not seem to be that for ring-woven mail, which is usually depicted in a different way in the visual arts.

Finally, other authors have suggested armour made from bronze sheets, small rectangular plates sewn together, of which there is no iconographic or archaeological evidence in Iberia and which was not used – or barely used– in the central Mediterranean region in this period. Moreover, plate armour is normally depicted in a much simpler way using a pattern of small squares or rectangles. Only the penultimate infantryman has his entire torso covered by a pattern of crossed lines forming small diamonds (which only cover the abdomen and belly of the rest of the figures), but the diagonal lines would not be adequate to represent plate amour, whose lines are clearly vertical and horizontal,and are represented in this way on some small Etruscan offerings, for example.

The most probable explanation is that the warriors are wearing a type of quilted protection, more likely made from textile than leather. In fact, the scale pattern was, for example, used on Greek ceramics to represent both metal scales and organic protective wear (the aegis or skin of AmaltheaÂ’s goat which protected Athena) and even the wings of deities such as Thanatos and Hypnos, such as on the famous vessel decorated by the painter Euphronios. In fact, Anderson explained many years ago that the scales in Greek black-figure paintings were normally used to indicate “hair on a hide... or even as a decorative motif on cloth”.

 

An interpretation of the aforementioned organic armor.

[wackyserious]

On 20/08/2020 at 2:47 AM, Ultimate Aurelian said:

 

I looked up the Iberian scale armors, only source seems to be this vase (Which may be quilted armor).

Thread on EB forum regarding the topic:

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?797309-Iberian-Linen-armor

Quote in the thread, from a historian:

  Hide contents

“The passive defensive weapons depicted on the Vessel (armour, helmets) present other problems. The horses on this vessel are represented using a conventional filler pattern to indicate their coat, which was previously misinterpreted by A. McBride, a great foreign artist but one with little knowledge about Hispanic archaeological realities, as scale or mail armour. His magnificent drawings were later imitated by others (for example, Alcaide and Vela) and have created—above all among amateurs— the idea of a cataphract “armoured” cavalry, which never existed in Iberia, nor in all the Mediterranean region in this period. Even in the far-off Persian world, during this period there was only some much lighter barding in use.

All the figures on the Vessel wear a type of coselete (light armour vest), perhaps with sleeves made from another material. The part which covers the chest (sometimes down to the diaphragm, sometimes to the belly) is covered with a scaled pattern which has caused many to think of metallic protection. Moreover, the lower abdomen is covered with what, without doubt, appears to be pteryges, hanging strips of organic material (usually leather or linen) which gave the wearer a certain degree of protection without restricting their movement. They seem to be wearing some type of metallic armour of which there were a great variety in use from Greece to the south of Gall via Italy. The majority of those who support this theory – including the aforementioned artist– believe that the Vessel depicts scaled armour. This type of armour was usually made up of small plates, normally made of bronze, sewn onto a textile support. It is a type of armour well-known in the western Mediterranean and Asia from the Bronze Age, and to a far lesser extent in Greece during the Iron Age. However, in Iberia (as in the Celtic world) no scaled armour of this type is known, nor represented on other media (sculptures, offerings, or even other ceramics). It was rare even in Italy, and in the classical Greek world it was used only occasionally as a complement to a type of textile armour (linothorax). But at the end of the third century neither the Carthaginians nor Romans appear to have used this type of protection; the legionaries in particular, as Polybius says (VI, 23, 14-15), wore a small bronze square on their chest at the most, and only the most affluent wore a coat of iron chainmail. This second option —the coat of mail— has also been suggested for the warriors, but these coats of mail from the 3rd to 2nd centuries BCE did not have pteryges and were furthermore an absolutely rarity in Iberia. Moreover, the decorative pattern used on the Vessel does not seem to be that for ring-woven mail, which is usually depicted in a different way in the visual arts.

Finally, other authors have suggested armour made from bronze sheets, small rectangular plates sewn together, of which there is no iconographic or archaeological evidence in Iberia and which was not used – or barely used– in the central Mediterranean region in this period. Moreover, plate armour is normally depicted in a much simpler way using a pattern of small squares or rectangles. Only the penultimate infantryman has his entire torso covered by a pattern of crossed lines forming small diamonds (which only cover the abdomen and belly of the rest of the figures), but the diagonal lines would not be adequate to represent plate amour, whose lines are clearly vertical and horizontal,and are represented in this way on some small Etruscan offerings, for example.

The most probable explanation is that the warriors are wearing a type of quilted protection, more likely made from textile than leather. In fact, the scale pattern was, for example, used on Greek ceramics to represent both metal scales and organic protective wear (the aegis or skin of AmaltheaÂ’s goat which protected Athena) and even the wings of deities such as Thanatos and Hypnos, such as on the famous vessel decorated by the painter Euphronios. In fact, Anderson explained many years ago that the scales in Greek black-figure paintings were normally used to indicate “hair on a hide... or even as a decorative motif on cloth”.

 

@LordGood @Stan` @Alexandermb and other members of the Art Department.

What will be our stand on the presented issues with the use of scale armor for the Iberian faction?

@Ultimate Aurelian and @Genava55 seem to support the idea of organic armor versus the use of scales.

[Ultimate Aurelian]

28 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

An interpretation of the aforementioned organic armor.

There is no evidence for mail skirt (only use of mail in region was by Celtiberians, who wore normal mail shirts) more likely the lower part was organic as well, a sort of fringe or Pteryges.

The idea of making your waist more protected than your chest, does not make much sense.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian