fatherbushido Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 1 minute ago, borg- said: This is a mod, I did this so players can play a decent game. If this is not implemented well, the mod will continue there. Yes, everybody is free to do his mod afaik. And a23 make it easier to provide mod, so the whole lobby can even play it even if it's not "implemented". Technical solution provided by current and former wfg devs made that kind of discussions irrelevant in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannibal_Barca Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, borg- said: respaudo spaghetti ? The stables and ranged were finished not long before the release of A23, totally understandable noone wanted to be pushed off a cliff for not thinking it thoroughly which civilizations should have these and which should have the bonus of 3in1 coffee I agree with what you say, although I say this because I don't want to be involved myself. 11 minutes ago, borg- said: But I ask you, which team takes care of this at the moment? Attempts were made in the past but always instead of gratitude and offers of aid people were just criticized by an ungrateful player community to the extent of which noone gives a shit anymore about balancing and game design because someone will always want to push them off a cliff for what they did, are doing, or plan to do. (not talking about myself) Edited May 30, 2019 by Hannibal_Barca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannibal_Barca Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 8 minutes ago, borg- said: And I've told you before, if you continue with this shallow balance, it will never work. I can give you quick examples here. If u nerf gaul/brit, so pto is new op, if u nerf pto, rome/athen is new op. If i nerf slingers, so skir cav back op again, maybe archers. How long would it take for each such change to be made? 2 alphas for each change ?? I'm sorry, but that's not how you do it. That's why you delegate specialized people to do each type of service. You are absolutely right, I am sure this is exactly why you added bactrian heavy archers when persians got 21303423 different cavalry units and one of the more complete champion rosters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg- Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Hannibal_Barca said: spaghetti ? The stables and ranged were finished not long before the release of A23, totally understandable noone wanted to be pushed off a cliff for not thinking it thoroughly which civilizations should have these and which should have the bonus of 3in1 coffee I agree with what you say, although I say this because I don't want to be involved myself. Attempts were made in the past but always instead of gratitude and offers of aid people were just criticized by an ungrateful player community to the extent of which noone gives a shit anymore about balancing and game design because someone will always want to push them off a cliff for what they did. I understand, and I agree, people judge but do not do better, that's a problem. But the mod has tremendously positive feedback. This seems to meet the need of most players, so we have a positive. If the chance of the mod actually implemented, I would like someone to come and talk to me about what should be done, what should be changed, what should be maintained, etc ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg- Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Hannibal_Barca said: You are absolutely right, I am sure this is exactly why you added bactrian heavy archers when persians got 21303423 different cavalry units and one of the more complete champion rosters Cosmopolitan to the core, the Persian Empire levied a wide variety of troops from their vassal satrapies. Though their infantry were weak and poorly equipped, they could be massed in vast numbers. Their cavalry was strong and exotic yet expensive and included the fearsome cavalry archer, camelry, mahout elephants, and scythed chariots. They were known for their lavish wealth, grand architecture and strong trade empire through the Silk Road. Combined Arms Warfare is the watchword of the Persians. No branch should be able to win the battle alone but used together and correctly the Persians should be able to win. Melee infantry to pin the enemy down, range infantry to wear him down, and cavalry to finish the enemy by flanking. Persian units are individually weak, so the challenge of playing the Persians is making sure you avoid fighting on terms other than your own. Melee alone against hoplites should be suicide, for example, as should range or cavalry. ORIGINAL DESIGN In the new version of the mod, his spearman infantry is weaker. Edited May 30, 2019 by borg- 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannibal_Barca Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 1 minute ago, borg- said: I understand, and I agree, people judge but do not do better, that's a problem. But the mod has tremendously positive feedback. This seems to meet the need of most players, so we have a positive. If the chance of the mod actually implemented, I would like someone to come and talk to me about what should be done, what should be changed, what should be maintained, etc ... The issue with a dedication towards both vanilla and mod is that people are always inclined to choose the path of least resistance, leading to the development of only the mod. When someone raises a problem and the author does not want to cave in, he will just do it in the mod. Thus the mod diverges evermore, vanilla comes to a standstill and people get fed up waiting on a solution that was circumvented by the mod. Nowadays tons of balancing mods are available, so much so that they destroy each other and their overall purpose P.S. I offer English tutorials at only 0.99$/h Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg- Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Hannibal_Barca said: You are absolutely right, I am sure this is exactly why you added bactrian heavy archers when persians got 21303423 different cavalry units and one of the more complete champion rosters Persian Cavalry is by far one of the best available with access to all classes including a champion Cavalry Archer, making the Persians effective in both raiding and heavy infantry battle clashes. Well armored and very effective Persian Cavalry especially in their Advanced promotions are fearsome. A bit more of the design document. Moreover, persian does not have the most amount of champs. Edited May 30, 2019 by borg- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StopKillingMe Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 13 minutes ago, borg- said: This is a mod, I did this so players can play a decent game. If this is not implemented well, the mod will continue there. But I ask you, which team takes care of this at the moment? And I've told you before, if you continue with this shallow balance, it will never work. I can give you quick examples here. If u nerf gaul/brit, so pto is new op, if u nerf pto, rome/athen is new op. If i nerf slingers, so skir cav back op again, maybe archers. How long would it take for each such change to be made? 2 alphas for each change ?? I'm sorry, but that's not how you do it. That's why you delegate specialized people to do each type of service. You have proven my point, you are a cowboy making decisions for everyone else on your own... because you don't want to work the process...this game is not a rock/paper/scissors RTS...mod away just be aware of the fact that some of us will never install it and will remain loyal to vanilla...no one person should decide alone what gets changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg- Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said: You have proven my point, you are a cowboy making decisions for everyone else on your own... because you don't want to work the process...this game is not a rock/paper/scissors RTS...mod away just be aware of the fact that some of us will never install it and will remain loyal to vanilla...no one person should decide alone what gets changed. Dude, I'm not taking decisions alone, I made a MOD, if people like it and implement it, great, otherwise it will continue to be a mod. I'm here just defending my mod and why it might be implemented, not trying to make people swallow it dry. Besides, it was not me who mentioned the mod in this conversation, it was other people who wanted it. If I had done this just for the new versions, I would be in the phabricator now and not in the mod.io. Edited May 30, 2019 by borg- 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) It seems to me that borg decided to move forward on the road of progress while vanilla remained stagnant. (“working with the dev team”. Sounds good, doesn’t work. Especially on the balancing front.) Edited May 30, 2019 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg- Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 Just now, (-_-) said: It seems to me that borg decided to move forward on the road of progress while vanilla remained stagnant. Exactly. The game is in a state that has a lot more to show and offer than this poor version of vanilla. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StopKillingMe Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 Why don't we just rename it to Age of Borg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 What several people in this thread have been trying to point out, is that your mod does too many things at once. So if you all you want is make a mod that's fun to play, great, continue like this. If, however, you want to get something changed in the default 0 A.D. repository, then it has to be done in small steps, and for each change not only list what you do, but also explain why. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg- Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said: Why don't we just rename it to Age of Borg? Are the arguments over? thankforpie, you can create as many accounts as you want, your childishness shows your face in all of them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg- Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, Nescio said: What several people in this thread have been trying to point out, is that your mod does too many things at once. So if you all you want is make a mod that's fun to play, great, continue like this. If, however, you want to get something changed in the default 0 A.D. repository, then it has to be done in small steps, and for each change not only list what you do, but also explain why. I agree. But explain to whom? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genava55 Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 18 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said: this game is not a rock/paper/scissors RTS It relies on the same principles than other rock/paper/scissors RTS... Borg's mod is not revolutionary on its foundations. 9 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said: Age of Borg? I approve, this is a great idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StopKillingMe Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) Yes, in the sense that I do not support having your mod rolled up into the next Alpha release...I recommend that you push for a patch system to be introduced, for balance changes only, and that each proposed patch should be debated here in the gameplay forum and adjusted accordingly before release. Edited May 30, 2019 by StopKillingMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannibal_Barca Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 4 minutes ago, borg- said: I agree. But explain to whom? To yourself To everyone else It's not about explaining. It's about showing everything in clear, precise and detailed steps. Not triggering an avalanche and watching the show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg- Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 11 minutes ago, Hannibal_Barca said: To yourself To everyone else It's not about explaining. It's about showing everything in clear, precise and detailed steps. Not triggering an avalanche and watching the show Honestly I will not do that. If the developers and leaders some day want to implement the mod, fine, I'll be happy, otherwise I'll be happy to know that I've done a good job. I'm not going to make a document explaining why people should like my mod and implement this to the original game. I'm particularly happy with the mod and I'm even happier to know that the people who play the mod are loving it. The mod has a lot of donwloads and followers (mod.io), videos on youtube etc ... so thats all I need. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feldfeld Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 6 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said: Yes, in the sense that I do not support having your mod rolled up into the next Alpha release...I recommend that you push for a patch system to be introduced, for balance changes only, and that each proposed patch should be debated here in the gameplay forum and adjusted accordingly before release. But this system won't lead to a balanced game, by viewing isolated patches people can only see so much, they won't see the end product and won't be able to say if the game is balanced or not. (and to which point do you want it divided ?) The mod could be broken into some components, like counter system, civ bonuses and unit statistics adjustement, but in the end its purpose would only be for developpers to make sure nothing is broken, it will not enable them to see if it is actually balanced or not. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg- Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Feldfeld said: But this system won't lead to a balanced game, by viewing isolated patches people can only see so much, they won't see the end product and won't be able to say if the game is balanced or not. (and to which point do you want it divided ?) The mod could be broken into some components, like counter system, civ bonuses and unit statistics adjustement, but in the end its purpose would only be for developpers to make sure nothing is broken, it will not enable them to see if it is actually balanced or not. Exactly, making separate patches does not work, because you need the whole set for this to work harmoniously. Counter system not work if units status is same of vannila. New techs/auras not work if units status is same of vannila. etc.. etc.. etc.. Edited May 30, 2019 by borg- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StopKillingMe Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 I have no idea what you are trying to say...I read this three times and can't understand a word of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StopKillingMe Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, borg- said: Exactly, making separate patches does not work, because you need the whole set for this to work harmoniously. So yet again, you've decided you're God. To WFG, please do not incorporate this mod into the next Alpha, thank you. Edited May 30, 2019 by StopKillingMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannibal_Barca Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 1 minute ago, StopKillingMe said: I have no idea what you are trying to say...I read this three times and can't understand a word of it. Not all have had the luck to be born in an environment that guarantees English proficiency 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted May 30, 2019 Report Share Posted May 30, 2019 2 hours ago, StopKillingMe said: The original design concepts and integrity of what 0ad is need to be preserved at all costs. sorry I hope dont be kind of rude...which design concept are you talking about here? because they're several in many years. Spoiler https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/War_Story 2 hours ago, StopKillingMe said: existing counter system should be tweaked There's no clear counter system here. (actual). my opinion and comparing with others mods. the actual meta is spamming units. 2 hours ago, StopKillingMe said: it's time to code freeze already and head to beta, people want to play this game. there are many issues, before start beta phase, the impatient of people isn't a matter o related to a stage. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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