Antiquity Expert's Main Thread

[Lion.Kanzen]

Problem with your suggestion (art and legal point)

Spoiler

This is complete damage so is unusable. We need a restored one.

Those are damaged

Spoiler

The frescoes are going to need an art curator, an expert we probably don't know.

The others are damaged and don't look as if they were finished (obvious). I think you've already thought about that detail.

and in the legal part we must use images compatible with our art licenses.

Please be patient, this project is voluntary.

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Lion.Kanzen]

21 minutes ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

I studied European art history at a European "elite" university; anyway, these are only given to present a sense of colour-schemes used in Hellenistic times, for inspiration to our designers in choosing building colours.

Color scheme is most simple form of all components of trying made a replica or trying to , you know that isn't enough.

That is not enough to repair or imitate a classic work - hellenistic, with one mentality (ideosyncracy and world view), the other is technical and form of the epoch, especially the interpretation, the theme, the materials, since we are going to use digital art, to imitate 50% of the original.  
 
All this related to the space and perspective they had, this must be known or explained in detail.

Then would come the texture, luminosity, this is not exactly a still life of a more modern period.

 later on the line and the objects creating a harmony, the set a whole, unity of all these elements to be appreciated.

is something that requires skills and knowledge.

[Lion.Kanzen]

sorry if I'm unable to found a restored one from our timeframe (Hellenistic period)

But there are others bass relieves

By the way you can found an example of a Fresco Hellenistic restored?

OK can be nice idea make one, using all 2D art team.-----

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Sundiata]

On 1/1/2019 at 6:51 AM, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

@Sundiata  Let us postpone that entire exchange of arguments to a separate thread, and focus on the issues at hand. There is enough to do! It will be an exciting task once we get so far. INDO-GREEK CIV. Awesome idea! What a historic campagn we could make!!

Sure, no problem. I'm going to open a research thread on the Greco Bactrian Kingdom sometime soon. I'm sure you'll be able to provide us with all the Greek literary sources (as there are only very few)

Just some closing remarks from my end.

Spoiler

We are indeed probably not that far apart. I'm focussing primarily on the Greco Bactrian Kingdom, not so much the Indo-Greek Kingdom, although there's obviously a clear relation. I was just a little "triggered" by "we must assume that these kingdoms, which were indeed as you say the last independent hellenistic kingdoms, were exactly like all the other hellenistic kingdoms", which just isn't true from an architectural perspective (apart from the theatre at Ai Khanoum, I'm yet to see a single purely Greek structure in Bactria). Neither is the ethnic composition the same, and even the variety of religions professed, not only by their subject populations but also by the Greeks in Bactria themselves. They would look and feel quite different from the other Hellenistic civs in-game, which is a good thing, to have accurate variety. That was my main point.  

I'm familiar with the Periplus of the Erythrean Sea. I don't recall it saying anything about Greeks mass-migrating out of Bactria. That route might have been very profitable, but also extremely arduous, and this time, seems rather speculative on your part to suggest that there was some kind of exodus through that route. I'm sure some Greeks migrated out of the region, but it couldn't have been that many. It took more than 2000 km over difficult terrain, now potentially hostile, just to reach the coast. Not really an urbanite family affair.   

  

1 hour ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

FULL STOP AND WARNING, those "sculpture colour reconstructions" and the entire series they are from are useless.

Would you care to elaborate? I thought the color reconstruction of the Alexander Sarcophagus was legit? Did I miss something? 

https://j4communications.com/files/2014/12/DSM_Alexander_A4_eng_finalLR-copy.pdf

 

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Sundiata]

@Anaxandridas ho Skandiates Yes, I noticed that they glossed over the lacquer finishing, pun intended...  But to say that they are useless and fake is a bit harsh, don't you think? They put an incredible amount of work into it, which I'm yet to see repeated, let alone improved by other teams of experts. I don't think they're too far off, perhaps not a mythical "100%", but nothing a little "varnish" can't fix...

I mean, it's nothing like the Spanish Jesus fiasco:

Spoiler

 

It's like making out Outlaw King to be Braveheart. They tried... The final result wasn't too shabby. 

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Sundiata]

Hmmm,

So you consider this laughable non-sense of an abject quality? 

 

Again, seems a bit harsh (especially considering that guy reconstructed the actual city of Ephesus for Nat Geo, not just those two buildings)

I'm actually quite enjoying his website  http://virtualreconstruction.com/wp/?paged=1

True, the color schemes might not be historically attested, as indicated by the artist himself, but I think those renders look really great, regardless. Historians and most self respecting history enthusiasts know that many details, especially things like color schemes, finishings and props in artist renditions are something to be cautious about. Where this particular artist didn't get the colors exactly right, he made up for in 3 dimensional awesomeness. But I guess that's just my opinion. Don't get me wrong, we should always strive for the highest level of accuracy, colors included. I just don't think artists and even researchers should be derided for not getting every single color exactly perfect. Constructive criticisms are better. Explaining exactly which colors are wrong, and how they should be improved in future iterations is far more valuable for artists. Historical reconstructions including artists renditions are often works in progress, that are revised (or redone), or can serve as inspiration for improvements by future artists as more information becomes available. 

Edited January 2, 2019 by Sundiata

[Genava55]

You can find some interesting papers with different views on academia.edu about this subject.

 

True Colours: Polychromy in Ancient Greek Art and its Dissemination in Museum Collections

https://www.academia.edu/37712353/True_Colours_Polychromy_in_Ancient_Greek_Art_and_its_Dissemination_in_Museum_Collections

Pigment vs. the Texture and Colour of Stone. To what Extent was Stone part of the polychrome Appearance of Hellenistic Sculpture?

https://www.academia.edu/6090245/Pigment_vs._the_Texture_and_Colour_of_Stone._To_what_Extent_was_Stone_part_of_the_polychrome_Appearance_of_Hellenistic_Sculpture

[Lion.Kanzen]

Quote

Abstract
White is the first colour which comes to mind when
one thinks of ancient Mediterranean art.[…]. Although it is now a well-established
fact that ancient sculpture and architecture
were painted, much more scientific research is still
needed. New scientific methods, especially in the
natural sciences, can contribute with new knowledge
of e.g. pigment identification, binding media,
and painting techniques, so that we can reach even
higher levels in the understanding of ancient polychromy.
The present paper examines some of the
recent work and methods on the study of the polychromy
of ancient Mediterranean artefacts carried
out at the Ny Carlsberg Glyptotek as well as the dissemination
of these results to the wider public.

as I guessed.

------ maybe I should open a topic with this topic in the reference forum.--------

 

 

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Lion.Kanzen]

Quote

FULL STOP AND WARNING, those "sculpture colour reconstructions" and the entire series they are from are useless.

please solid evidence. if you insist to be that way, probably you will be ignored. 

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Lion.Kanzen]

Quote

The problem is that finding a pigment and then just applying it in large masses unto a marble statue copy is just a huge fiasco.

better, i love that. sense. but you have sources, the common sense is good but is needed contrast the evidence.

I mean the detractors.

-------------------

by the way you have an example of Hellenistic fresco, even if is digital.

 

Just now, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

With all due respect @Lion.Kanzen you posted a whole collection of those bad reconstructions with the text "Very complete variety of colored statues. Gods in color" in the other thread, without any kind of critical remark to accompany them, you also posted the Pompeian Triclinium of Villa of Mysteries and its super-highquality workmanship in this thread, yet you still refuse to contrast the two.

See the obvious.

I hope none of us will be ignored, but if it must be then I hope that people will listen to the rational argument set forth in an academic manner and polite and correct English. I never attacked you the way you attack me, I politely criticize some ideas that are set forth, and abstain from personal attacks and try to remain friendly. Those who will remain obstinate in defiance of evidence presented in a friendly manner will never deepen their understanding of anything

we work with sources, is our method no my choice.

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Lion.Kanzen]

5 minutes ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

The Alexander mosaic and the nile mosaic are just mosaic copies of Hellenistic paintings, many other examples could be mentioned;

I do have direct fresco paitings, all of the Macedonian tomb paintings from the Alexandrian golden age are direct examples, many of them quite well preserved to show true colourschemes. I even posted several of them already, will post later again all that I have right here without my main harddisk.

we can be patience to wait, can be nice split each topic, buildings, style (Hellenistic from…), then periods, etc.

 

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Stan`]

Don't worry too much about the tone. Lion isn't a native english speaker, and most of the time what can be understood as a harsh tone is just plain mistranslation from spanish  (And he improved a lot :))

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 hours ago, stanislas69 said:

Don't worry too much about the tone. Lion isn't a native english speaker, and most of the time what can be understood as a harsh tone is just plain mistranslation from spanish  (And he improved a lot :))

add even I'm not too much to write even in my language or to write. my intellligence is focus in visual area. 

[GunChleoc]

On 12/30/2018 at 9:55 PM, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Transcription should be standardized to 350 B.C. Attic - otherwise it will confuse more than it helps. It is already super complicated as it is.
 

The classical Greek of the 4th century was the Greek of all the great figures, all the way until late antiquity. This is what higher education taught, this is what the pronounciation-manuals were written to standardize. Koine is based on high-style Attic.

Therefore you want to STANDARDIZE your transcription (unit/building name tags etc.) and pronounciation as follows:

Β β - beta, as in "Bike!" translit.: B
Γ γ - gamma, as in "Greek"  --- two ΓΓ creates "ng" sound, hence ΑΓΓΕΛΟΙ ("angeloi", messengers/angels) translit.: G/NG
Ε ε - epsilon, as in German "sehr" translit.: E
Ζ ζ - dzeta/zdeta, either pronounced "ds" or "sd"! translit.: Z
Η η - heta, as in "hell" translit.: E
Θ θ - theta, as in "tax" translit.: TH
Ξ ξ - ksi, as in "axis" translit.: X
Ο ο - omikron, as in German "Sohn" translit.: O
Π π - pi, as b in english "blister" translit.: P
Ρ ρ - rho, rolled as in Italian "Roma" translit.: RH
Τ τ - tau, as in "astonished" translit.: T
Υ υ - ypsilon, as in German "für" translit.: Y
Φ φ - phi, as in "please" translit.: PH
Χ χ -  chi, as c in "casting" translit.: CH
Ψ ψ - psi, as in "epilepsy" translit.: PS
Ω ω - omega, as in "sloooooow" translit.: O
The letter "U" did not exist. The Greeks wrote ΟΥ, sounding as in "moon" (ΜΟΥΝ!). translit.: OU

Antiquity used ONLY CAPITAL LETTERS. (The small letters are included here for your convenience.)
The sound "F" did not exist at all, nor did the "th" of "the". If you hear it, you know it is not Greek from antiquity.
(Finally you want to avoid the later variant signs ω for Ω-omega, and C for Σ-sigma, on inscriptions or in artwork!)

Thank you for your expertise!

Can you add IPA to pronunciation notes like these? This way, it will be clear which sounds are actually meant rather than substituting to sounds of modern languages that are somewhat similar but not the same really. It would enable people who do no know these languages the chance of doing recordings. For example, from your description, omikron looks like [oː] (a long vowel) and omega looks like [ow] (a diphthong), is this correct?

[Nescio]

1 hour ago, GunChleoc said:

Thank you for your expertise!

Can you add IPA to pronunciation notes like these? This way, it will be clear which sounds are actually meant rather than substituting to sounds of modern languages that are somewhat similar but not the same really. It would enable people who do no know these languages the chance of doing recordings. For example, from your description, omikron looks like [oː] (a long vowel) and omega looks like [ow] (a diphthong), is this correct?

Here you go:

Consonants:

β, π, φ, ψ are pronounced b, p, pʰ, ps
γ, κ, χ, ξ are pronounced g, k, kʰ, ks, exception: γ before {γ, κ, χ, ξ, μ, ν} is ŋ
δ, τ, θ, ζ are pronounced d, t, tʰ, dz/zd (ζ is debated, there are decent arguments for and against both options)

σ/ς is s

λ, μ, ν, ρ are l, m, n, rʰ

Vowels, monophthongs, and diphthongs:

α, αι, ᾳ, αυ are a/aː, ai̯, aːi̯, au̯/aːu̯ (yes, αι and ᾳ are different)
ε, ει are e, eː
η, ῃ, ηυ are ɛː, ɛːi̯, ɛːu̯
ι is i or iː
ο, ου, οι are o, oː, oi̯
υ, υι are y/yː, yi̯
ω, ῳ are ɔː, ɔːi̯

Basically, α, ι and υ can be long or short (dictionaries distinguish between ᾱ, ῑ, ῡ and ᾰ, ῐ, ῠ, text editions don't), ε and ο are always short (ει and ου are their long counterparts), η and ω are always long (no short equivalents).

Word-initial vowels:

ἀ (lenis): no aspiration
ἁ (asper): aspiration, i.e. h+vowel

Accentuation:

ά (acute): rising tone
ᾶ (circumflex): rising then falling tone
ὰ (grave): falling tone

Edited February 16, 2019 by Nescio
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