===[TASK]=== Iberian Unit Props Update

[Lion.Kanzen]

the third link is very long and speak about unit props, like daggers and other things I need read this care full.

[Genava55]

Hey Lion.Kanzen, I am glad you are back  

7 hours ago, wackyserious said:

Reused and enhanced some parts of the old texture from source and came up with this.

I like this one. I think it is all good. 

For the two previous ones, I think there was an evolution of the chainmail technology during the 5th to 2nd century BC. You see the old chainmail with the plaques have a very different assemblage than a classical "lorica hamata". In fact the way the mail is coupled to each other is close to the few chainmail from Etruscan burials. Probably this way to assemble results to a lighter but weaker armor. Cardiophylax are becoming less popular after the third century BC, when the classical chainmail started to be widespread. This is why I hesitated about the mixing of cardiophylax and classical chainmail. I read several talks about the Celtiberians on twcenter and I thought the chainmail never was in used before the third century BC, according to the argument in the talks. But maybe they were wrong on the older chain mail type or unaware of its existence. Thus a mixing of a cardiophylax and of the old fashioned chain mail is definitely possible. Also possible with the plaques. 

Edit: @wackyserious An example of Etruscan chain mail skirt:
http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.32266.html
 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Genava55

[Lion.Kanzen]

page 27-() from....

https://docplayer.es/50850604-La-panoplia-guerrera-de-la-necropolis-de-villanueva-de-teba-burgos.html

Quote

.  DEFENSIVE WEAPONS: SHIELDS. Few pieces of shield have been found in the necropolis, which contrasts with the size and colourfulness of the daggers; they also attract attention because of their morphological unity, since practically all of them are of the same type and there are not many auxiliary elements of the shield that have appeared.

mostly of document is about this.

Quote

A panoply is a complete suit of armour. The word represents the ancient Greek πανοπλία (panoplía), where the word πᾶν pân means "all", and ὅπλον hóplon, "arms". Thus panoply refers to the full armour of a hoplite or heavy-armed soldier, i.e. the shield, breastplate, helmet and greaves, together with the sword and lance.^[1]

As applied to armour of a later date, panoply did not come into use till the end of the 16th and beginning of the 17th century, and was then used of the complete suits of plate armour covering the whole body

Quote

 1.- great importance of the warrior panoply not because of the richness of its content but because it is a relevant element of the entire necropolis that is present in many tombs. 2.- corresponds to a social group of equestrian character with a significant indicator that responds to two typological variations the bite of the animal (of use and punishment). This is due to the fact that the horse is not only of interest as an "instrument of war" (if the expression is correct) but also implies a preparation process such as the appearance of punishment bites that are used for the taming of the animal; which means that they tamed horses.

 

Quote

The Celtiberian panoply, because it is the closest and best known to that of our area, is very uniform regardless of whether it has evolved from the end of the 7th to the 1st century BC. The sword and/or the dagger, the spear tips, the knife, the shield, the armour and chainmail, the helmet, sometimes elements of slingshot, bow, greaves, are the objects that make up the integral warrior panoply but never appear complete. The sword/stab, the spear tips, the umbo of the shield, the knife are the recurrent pieces in the tombs. Depending on the stages and the social degree of each burial, the trousseau is richer or poorer. The most normal thing is that an element of each type of object appears although in some cases duplicates are presented to us; except for the spear tips that is more variable the number being the weapon par excellence that is followed closely by the knife (fig. 28). The panoply of Villanueva de Teba is very simple and coherent with the fact that it ralated to  a necropolis of a fairly short life although we have to give a large chronological arc to all of it. It offers figures that are common to other necropolis, so it does not introduce anything new except the typological questions that we have already explained. Four (we include the regatón with the spear) are the integral elements of the total panoply: the dagger, the spear tip/regatón, the knife and the shield. The spearheads are the most represented because 27 specimens appeared, plus 10 regatons.  The spearheads mean 39% of the objects in the panoply and the regatons 15%, which when considered as a whole represent more than 50% of the total. In nine tombs there is only one spearhead, but in eight tombs there is only one spearhead.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

7 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Hey Lion.Kanzen, I am glad you are back  

I like this one. I think it is all good. 

For the two previous ones, I think there was an evolution of the chainmail technology during the 5th to 2nd century BC. You see the old chainmail with the plaques have a very different assemblage than a classical "lorica hamata". In fact the way the mail is coupled to each other is close to the few chainmail from Etruscan burials. Probably this way to assemble results to a lighter but weaker armor. Cardiophylax are becoming less popular after the third century BC, when the classical chainmail started to be widespread. This is why I hesitated about the mixing of cardiophylax and classical chainmail. I read several talks about the Celtiberians on twcenter and I thought the chainmail never was in used before the third century BC, according to the argument in the talks. But maybe they were wrong on the older chain mail type or unaware of its existence. Thus a mixing of a cardiophylax and of the old fashioned chain mail is definitely possible. Also possible with the plaques. 

I was very sick first with parasite then Gastritis then Irritable bowel syndrome. I think is pure anxiety.

[Lion.Kanzen]

[Lion.Kanzen]

 

Fig. 1
 
a
 The Celtiberians and other pre-Roman peoples of Hispania. –
b
 Correlation diagram between archaeology, linguistics, historical sources and chronology of the Celtiberian world. –
c
 Evolutionary picture of the Celtiberian panoply. - (According to Lorrio 2002, g. 1 [C]; 2005, gs. 59. 143 ([C

according with last link.

https://www.academia.edu/30577570/La_guerra_y_el_armamento_celtibérico_estado_actual

 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

Quote

 TRAINING PHASE (CA. 650/600-450 A. C.): SPEARHEADS, SWORDS, BODY DISCS AND GREAVES
From the 6th century B.C., or maybe something before that.
 27
In the Celtiberia, the formation of a cultural system evidenced by a material culture, habitat, socioeconomic structure and characteristic rites that shows a long evolutionary process. The presence of weapons forming part of the funerary trousseaux reveals
a gentilicia structure and they put of maniesto a strong social hierarchization, at the time that they provide
information on the type of armament and the characteristics of its panoply. During this stage (phase I), which can be assimilated to Ancient Celtiberian, the funerary furnishings reveal the presence of groups with a different incipient.
and a "warrior" component reejado by some tombs with weapons, which include by the
common long spearheads, with a strong central nerve of square, rectangular or circular section, narrow fins, and lengths sometimes exceeding 50 cm, although others of lesser length are also documented.
tud, between 13 and 22 cm, all of them equipped with a regatón, sometimes of great length, as well as curved knives, an element of ritual value, given its role as a sacricial weapon.
 28
 (
gs. 1c; 5, 23; 6a
). However, if until recently we lacked information on other offensive weapons (
gs. 5, 1; 6b-c
)
 29
This is of great interest as it equates the Celtiberian panoply of this early phase with those of the Northeast, the northern zone of the Levant or the South of the Iberian Peninsula. It is also the case of certain defensive weapons, such as pectorals and greaves (
gs. 5, 35. 45; 7-9
Among the swords there is an uncontextualized fragment assimilable to the type of rectangular flat reed.
and terminal button of the necropolis of Los Cantos, in Cubo de la Solana (prov. Soria / E). It presents two oricios
in the area of the leaf next to the handle as a relapse (
gs. 5, 1; 6b
), which resembles the one recovered in tomb 1 of the necropolis of Can Canyís (Banyeres, prov. Tarragona / E).
 30
dated around the second quarter of the 6th century B.C.
 31
 However, the section of the blade of the sword of Canyís seems to be rhomboidal, possibly with a strong central nerve, like a second copy of the same tomb that did not have the handle, and apparently without grooves, present in the Soria piece, whose blade is also considerably wider and thinner, although this detail has not been reproduced in the publication.This is not the only finding of swords, as shown by the necropolis of Herrería-III, in the north of the province of Guadalajara, where they have been identified, with doubts, a set of weapons very altered by corrosion, identified as swords from the width of their leaves, greater than 4 cm, strong nerve.
in front of the spearheads recovered in the necropolis, whose maximum width does not exceed 1,000 metres.
3-3,5 cm
 32
. In the tombs are identified: 27, two similar specimens of strong central nerve of circular section, of which only the incomplete leaf is preserved, 4.3 cm wide and between 2.5 and 3 cm thick.
 33
51, a copy of the rhombic section sheet
 34
123, a very fragmented piece of possible Rom section.
-bica
 35
 (
g. 6c
); to which must be added that of tomb 101, similar to those of tomb 27, although a little more

 - War and Celtiberian Armament: Current Status
Fig. 5
 Evolution of the Celtiberian armament:
1
 Button and tongue sword. –
2-3. 7-9. 12. 14
 swords with "Aquitano" type antennas (2);
"Anguita Eagle" (3); "Echauri" (7); "Atance" (8-9); "Arcóbriga" (12); triple plate hybrid (14). –
4-5
 sword and fronton dagger. –
6. 10
 "Monte Bernorio" type daggers. –
11. 17
 Falcatas. –
13. 18
 "La Tène" type swords. –
14-16. 19-20. 22. 24
 various triple plate grip daggers. –
21
 dagger of the righteous. –
23
 gladius hispaniensis. –
25. 28
 spear tips and javelin. –
26
 
 soliferreum
. –
27
 
 pila or pilum
. –
29-34
 helmets: type "Alpanseque-Almaluez" (29), type "Aguilar de Anguita" (30); other (31); Spanish-Calcidic type (32-33); type "Montefortino" (34); greba (35). –
36-44
 Shields: bronze studs (36); "Aguilar de Anguita" type umbers, variant A (37) and B (38); various types of handles (38-41); hemispherical umbers (42. 44); scutum (43) . –
45-48
 heart discs. –
49-54
 iconography. - (According to Lorrio 2009, 62; completed)

Edited April 11, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

 

 

 

Fig. 13 spear tips and javelin ( a ), pilum ( b ,1-3) and soliferreum ( b 4) of the necropolis of Arcóbriga (prov. Zaragoza / E ). - (According to Lorrio / Sánchez de Prado 2009, gs. 161-162).

 

 

 

 

 

In general, the Hispano-Calcidic helmets are integrated in two large groups (2 and 3) (figs. 14. 19), whose differences could be related to the individualized character of these productions and related to the existence of different artisans or specialized workshops, without ruling out possible chronological differences, which would explain the differences that we observe both with respect to the oldest specimens (group 1), which include the specimen of Los Canónigos and possibly one of those recovered in Aranda de Moncayo from a seemingly funerary origin, as well as the later ones, preserved in a very fragmentary way (groups
Fig. 19
 Typological groups and serialization of the helmets

 

 

 

 Fig. 21
 Evolution of coraza(cuirass)  discs in the Iberian Peninsula and the South of France:
1
 El Atance (prov. Guadalajara / E) (type 4);
2-5
 Aguilar de Anguita (prov. Guadalajara / E) (types 6 and 8);
6-8
 zone of Aranda de Moncayo (prov. Zaragoza / E) (type 10). - (According to Graells 2014a, g. 17

[Genava55]

36 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

I was very sick first with parasite then Gastritis then Irritable bowel syndrome. I think is pure anxiety.

Oh sh*t I am sorry you got this. I know some persons with irritable bowel syndromes and indeed, stress management helps them to reduce the symptoms. If I can suggest you one thing, drawing is a good hobby and stress reliever, I used this when I got a depression. Simply drawing patterns, animals or trees, it helps you focusing your mind on something not stressful.

25 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

In the Celtiberia, the formation of a cultural system evidenced by a material culture, habitat, socioeconomic structure and characteristic rites that shows a long evolutionary process. The presence of weapons forming part of the funerary trousseaux reveals
a gentilicia structure and they put of maniesto a strong social hierarchization, at the time that they provide
information on the type of armament and the characteristics of its panoply. During this stage (phase I), which can be assimilated to Ancient Celtiberian, the funerary furnishings reveal the presence of groups with a different incipient.
and a "warrior" component reejado by some tombs with weapons, which include by the
common long spearheads, with a strong central nerve of square, rectangular or circular section, narrow fins, and lengths sometimes exceeding 50 cm, although others of lesser length are also documented.
tud, between 13 and 22 cm, all of them equipped with a regatón, sometimes of great length, as well as curved knives, an element of ritual value, given its role as a sacricial weapon.

Thanks mate. It is interesting the development and the evolution of the Celtiberian society. It seems the historians really divide the Celtiberian Iron age in different stage according to their warfare characteristics (Stage I = Ancient pre-5th century BC with light equipment ; Stage II = Aristocratic equipment and full panoply with the classical disc cuirass, helmet, daggers, round shields and swords 5th to 3rd century BC ; Stage III = More Mediterranean  influence, Roman equipment notably, montefortino helmet. More Celtic equipment. )

This in interesting because the Iberians didn't have the same division. Aristocratic panoply are more common before the 4th century BC. Documents analyzing iberian panoplies:

https://www.academia.edu/1473558/Military_developments_in_the_Late_Iberian_culture_c._237-c._195_BC_Mediterranean_influences_in_the_Far_West_via_the_Carthaginian_military_in_English_.

https://www.academia.edu/29055748/_La_guerra_y_el_armamento_ibérico_estado_actual_F._Quesada_Sanz_2016_In_R._Graells_D._Marzoli_eds._Armas_de_la_Hispania_prerromana.RGZM_Tagungen_Band_24_Mainz_2016_pp._165-192

@Lion.Kanzen If I can suggest you a useful tool as well: http://removelinebreaks.net/

Very useful when you copy past text from pdf files.

No need to translate everything. It is only to browse through the documents, highlighting the important points and the details that could be interesting about the equipment. I understand a bit Spanish (this is a latin language sooo...) but it took me far more time to only browse the documents and often I missed some points. 

 

[Genava55]

@stanislas69 Maybe we should move the discussion about the references here https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/25190-iberian-references/&tab=comments#comment-366695 and keeping this thread for @wackyserious 's work.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

17 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

@stanislas69 Maybe we should move the discussion about the references here https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/25190-iberian-references/&tab=comments#comment-366695 and keeping this thread for @wackyserious 's work.

 

yes and original links provided by Wackyserious 

[Lion.Kanzen]

16 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Very useful when you copy past text from pdf files.

No need to translate everything. It is only to browse through the documents, highlighting the important points and the details that could be interesting about the equipment. I understand a bit Spanish (this is a latin language sooo...) but it took me far more time to only browse the documents and often I missed some points. 

I forgot use a tool to removes the spaces from pdf.

Spoiler

https://pinetools.com/

 

[wackyserious]

IBERIAN INFANTRY UNITS (Retexture)

[Stan`]

4 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

IBERIAN INFANTRY UNITS (Retexture)

Nice work !  No need to scream though 

[soloooy0]

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

6 hours ago, soloooy0 said:

 

vos fuiste el que dijo que parecían indigentes?

 

You're the one who said they looked homeless? (the older models)

[soloooy0]

No, lo más cercano a los clientes habituales son los campeones gladius hispanensis y falcatas.

y las unidades Soliferreum, que no sé cómo sería viable, una unidad que usa una lanza pesada para romper una armadura, pero fue utilizada en pocas ocasiones mmmm

Edited April 12, 2019 by soloooy0

[Lion.Kanzen]

some vuy said our Iberian looks homeless.

but later he said was trying to help, but somebody ruin their contribution. 

[soloooy0]

I'm not in that conversation, but the first one's help would be, good or important

[Lion.Kanzen]

58 minutes ago, soloooy0 said:

I'm not in that conversation, but the first one's help would be, good or important

quien será? no lo recuerdo.

[soloooy0]

Ion Thaigo ardrea

[Genava55]

It depends. If it is like the Catalan guy that said the Iberian faction should use catalan language because they share the same region, I think you we can sabotate their offer without any remorse. 

[wackyserious]

Ready to commit, waiting for green light.

[Lion.Kanzen]

45 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

Ready to commit, waiting for green light.

they are asking for...

[Lion.Kanzen]

5 hours ago, soloooy0 said:

Ion Thaigo ardrea

no tiene usuario en el foro?