Gameplay features A24

[Sundiata]

2 hours ago, Nescio said:

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse.

Or that... Thanks. My Latin is a little rusty, and by rusty I mean nearly non-existant  

Sum, es, est, sumus, estis, sunt is pretty much what I remember from high-school... Oh, and the compluvium and impluvium of the Roman domus, which actually seems to be missing in the Roman house models in-game, so I'll add that to my wishlist for alpha 24..

[Lion.Kanzen]

27 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Game needs move-attack [not to be confused with attack-move]. Chasing units should be able to attack while still chasing the fleeing enemy unit. Would be nice to see, that way you don't see, f.e., a sword cavalry catching up to a fleeing enemy archer and stop to attack, only to see the archer run out of melee range.

By hotkey?

16 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

Or that... Thanks. My Latin is a little rusty, and by rusty I mean nearly non-existant  

Sum, es, est, sumus, estis, sunt is pretty much what I remember from high-school... Oh, and the compluvium and impluvium of the Roman domus, which actually seems to be missing in the Roman house models in-game, so I'll add that to my wishlist for alpha 24..

It's a nice fellow.

Spoiler

 

 

[Nescio]

25 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

Or that... Thanks. My Latin is a little rusty, and by rusty I mean nearly non-existant

Carthago delenda est is not incorrect, however, the ceterum censeo is at least as famous, and without it you'd miss the beautiful alliteration, therefore I have a preference for the full sentence instead of the short-hand

(Actually Polybius wrote Greek, but hardly anyone would recognize “δοκεῖ δέ μοι καὶ Καρχηδόνα μὴ εἶναι.” (I had to look up the exact sentence as well, my Greek is not as good as my Latin.) Likewise, ”ἀνερρίφθω κύβος” is better known by its Latin translation alea iacta est.)

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

By hotkey?

No, default behavior 

[wackyserious]

2 hours ago, Sundiata said:

Or that... Thanks. My Latin is a little rusty, and by rusty I mean nearly non-existant  

Sum, es, est, sumus, estis, sunt is pretty much what I remember from high-school... Oh, and the compluvium and impluvium of the Roman domus, which actually seems to be missing in the Roman house models in-game, so I'll add that to my wishlist for alpha 24..

Or Romanes eunt domus.

[XLightningStormL]

That's something I'd like to see in a future update, the Aethiopians (although it'd be a bit tricky since the kingdom of D'met was disestablished in 400 BC) and the Aksumite Empire wouldn't appear until 100 AD.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, XLightningStormL said:

That's something I'd like to see in a future update, the Aethiopians (although it'd be a bit tricky since the kingdom of D'met was disestablished in 400 BC) and the Aksumite Empire wouldn't appear until 100 AD.

For the second part. the Axumites.

[lordofgaladhrim]

My ideas concern more with the role of women in-game.

Women should be able to level up their ability to gather resources efficiently, which also changes their clothing, like how soldiers and healers level up their stats and acquire new clothing. This makes women at least more valuable game-wise, instead of disposable worker unit types. Women would still be vulnerable to attack, therefore not overpowered.

Women should be able to set up devotional offerings in front of temples, at the cost of resources on a percentage on-going basis, which can grant passive non-permanent buffs to stats for units in home territory. The buffs would be gone as soon as the offerings are cancelled or there are no resources available, and the scope of the buffs is in home territory, therefore it is not overpowered. There are already similar in-game mechanics to this, with the Druids (warriors have buffs when near druids) and Roman Citizenship (Roman faction have non-permanent stats in home territory).

All of the mechanisms are also historically accurate, women did have vital roles in managing local economies and temple worship in nearly all civilisations.

[Lion.Kanzen]

What happens with conversion? there are some patches.

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/ticket/997

Edited May 18, 2018 by Lion.Kanzen

[Grugnas]

would be nice to have upgradable palisades into spiked palisades.

anti elephant tech for towers only which would allow towers to shoot something like 3 javelins/2sec to elephants only (I am not sure that simply prioritizing elephants class would allow towers to shoot all 5 arrows to a single elephant rather than just 1 arrow to an elephant and the other arrows to random targets).

Working formations.

eventually battallions for champions only

[coworotel]

About the tribute wagon (if this is still open for discussion), I was thinking if it wouldn't be easier to just work via the already existing trading routes. The player clicks to send the tributes (as is done now), but instead of the resources being immediately transfered to the ally, they go with the next traders that leave your market (the trader unit we already have today). Then when they reach the ally's market, instead of giving you profit, they transfer the tribute. If the wagon is lost a message could be displayed like "tribute lost". This way I think the dynamics of tribute will be as easy as they are now, without increasing micro-management, but introducing a requirement that there is an existing trade route, and subject to sabotaging by enemies (by destroying the wagon). It is interesting also that this would encourage some shorter trade routes, as opposed to longer trading routes for bigger profit, so the players would have incentives to have both.

[Servo]

It’s hard to go back and read everything but as of late observing how A23 gameplay the change (on gameplay) right now is quite minimal imo. New animations and good maps are just the most exciting ones either for SP or MP.

1. Cavalry seems fine especially on new maps with rugged terrain. I watch a really epic battle last night that lasted 2 hrs. But if it can only be trained from a stable rather than CC and barracks the early spam with good hunts map is not really easy especially for good micro players. Another thing with cavalry is the abuse of hunting from the corrals which is really quite unrealistic and a mess. 

2. The pacing on speed as well as resource gathering imo really needs to be slowed down. Trees need to fall before gathering like AoE and it could also serve as barrier from melee attack. Farms need to be far from CC and each corral and farmstead needs to be distant far distant apart. Support structures like temple, market and maybe blacksmith as well need minimum distance, possibly 1 structure each every phase or CC. Temple should be far from battle fronts and/or must be built within or not too far from CC aura. A small chapel with less capability is just fine I guess.

2. As I said before towers being used as offensive weapon imo is not really good especially that team game maps are limited in size for the time being to avoid lag contributions. Non living things should not fire arrows. If manned by range units it should fire projectiles if not their purpose is just a refuge with hard capture points. Until there is an upgrade to have it equipped with range siege weapons then it can’t fire a heavy projectile damage.

3. I think a feature giving docks, and/or captured structures giving aura for players to build other structures like houses, markets, blacksmith and even military structures around it is a good gameplay. 

3. Siege weapons please make it manned and if not manned should be inoperable. Just give aura for the manning units so that it’s hard to get destroyed or inoperable. Also make it more expensive and hard to procure as it just kill the gameplay and not putting the more emphasis on organic units battle. Military ships too, despite having few wide open naval maps these are being spammed easily that makes the naval battle so crowded and mess. If they are not equipped with catapults or any range siege weapons units manning should just either survive or die from range attack but arrow fire should not cause more ship damage.

4. Deleting units especially women need to be removed. bbgotbanned just send it to the frontline as sacrifice.

5. Commerce cap please and I don’t mind if traders generate roads. Btw I haven’t tried if traders can be commanded using waypoints. I know that markets or docks can...maybe.

6. Some relics should be stationary and could even provide territory aura so structures can be built.

7. Heroes need not get a second life so that they are not becoming OP or abused. Also they should not train champions or units. Instead they can promote his accompanying unit/s. Healing heroes can train it’s accompanying units into healers too.

Duh I’m also dreaming.

[Lion.Kanzen]

On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 6:04 AM, bartekk said:

Not a gameplay idea but I think that for alpha 24 we should really focus on general performance and lags in multiplayer - It might be a real blocker to attract more people to play this fantastic game.

Isn't easy, we know about that problem, but this takes time even big companies knows that and is difficult for them.

[Rolf Dew]

What about a system where one could train villagers into military units, similiar to Battle Realms?

 

Edited May 22, 2018 by Rolf Dew

[Rolf Dew]

 

I think that could add an interesting 

gameplay aspect?

Edited May 22, 2018 by Rolf Dew

[Rolf Dew]

Maybe even just to train basic soldiers into Champions, therefore increasing the time and cost of training champions. So that the game could reflect reality that Champions were a time consuming and expensive unit to train and that would increase their value and maybe make other units an easier alternative at times 

Edited May 22, 2018 by Rolf Dew

[aeonios]

3 hours ago, Servo said:

The pacing on speed as well as resource gathering imo really needs to be slowed down. Trees need to fall before gathering like AoE and it could also serve as barrier from melee attack. Farms need to be far from CC and each corral and farmstead needs to be distant far distant apart. Support structures like temple, market and maybe blacksmith as well need minimum distance, possibly 1 structure each every phase or CC. Temple should be far from battle fronts and/or must be built within or not too far from CC aura. A small chapel with less capability is just fine I guess.

What? Most games last 30 minutes to an hour, sometimes more. How much slower can you get?

3 hours ago, Servo said:

As I said before towers being used as offensive weapon imo is not really good especially that team game maps are limited in size for the time being to avoid lag contributions. Non living things should not fire arrows. If manned by range units it should fire projectiles if not their purpose is just a refuge with hard capture points. Until there is an upgrade to have it equipped with range siege weapons then it can’t fire a heavy projectile damage.

Offensive towers are a completely legitimate tactic, just like offensive fortresses which is pretty standard. The issue with lag is complicated, and is probably a result of bad design in terms of the network architecture the game uses. Lag should be fixed, rather than worked around, and it especially should not be a motivation for changing the gameplay. If some specific element of the gameplay were to blame for the lag then ditching it might be understandable, but as far as I can tell there's no good reason why the game should lag as bad as it does.

3 hours ago, Servo said:

I think a feature giving docks, and/or captured structures giving aura for players to build other structures like houses, markets, blacksmith and even military structures around it is a good gameplay. 

What? Offensive towers are bad but making it so that capturing an enemy building allows you to build a tower in their base is good? That's insane.

3 hours ago, Servo said:

3. Siege weapons please make it manned and if not manned should be inoperable. Just give aura for the manning units so that it’s hard to get destroyed or inoperable. Also make it more expensive and hard to procure as it just kill the gameplay and not putting the more emphasis on organic units battle. Military ships too, despite having few wide open naval maps these are being spammed easily that makes the naval battle so crowded and mess. If they are not equipped with catapults or any range siege weapons units manning should just either survive or die from range attack but arrow fire should not cause more ship damage.

Ranged siege weapons already have an operator as part of their model set. Given that they also cost a significant amount of population that would just make the game more of a pain and more turtle friendly. Feeding the turtles isn't a good way to improve anything.

There have been plans for implementing siege-equippable ships for a long time, but who knows when that will ever be implemented. I agree that sea is kind of crappy, but fixing it isn't really simple.

3 hours ago, Servo said:

4. Deleting units especially women need to be removed. bbgotbanned just send it to the frontline as sacrifice.

You mean no suicide? Meh. Suicide is kind of awkward, but you still need some way to deal with buildings blocking your units if you happen to screw up. People would then need to be able to attack their own buildings, or maybe have an un-build command to reclaim some of the resources. Also that'd be a significant nerf to capturing.

3 hours ago, Servo said:

5. Commerce cap please and I don’t mind if traders generate roads. Btw I haven’t tried if traders can be commanded using waypoints. I know that markets or docks can...maybe.

Why? Commerce is painfully slow already even if you spam traders (which in addition to eating up population are very expensive) and the resources you get are random, which means that mostly trade doesn't produce the resources you actually need, and upgrading it takes resources away from actual combat-related things.

4 hours ago, Servo said:

7. Heroes need not get a second life so that they are not becoming OP or abused. Also they should not train champions or units. Instead they can promote his accompanying unit/s. Healing heroes can train it’s accompanying units into healers too.

Heroes aren't that op, and they're also very expensive and slow to build. Promoting units isn't necessarily a bad idea but it'd be complicated to implement cleanly and would be just one more complicated game mechanic to give players more pain.

[Servo]

Most games last 30 minutes or more because the first 15 to 20 minutes of the game is making sim city and gathering resources. The next minutes will be war and when a team member is weakened the game is over. Players will say oh I got doubled and many excuses. That is if there are no rushers. When there are rushers the game is over in less than 20 minutes except if some players want to hang on and not waste their time building a city, gathering resources and train armies to at least use them. In a 1v1 game do you see any interesting strategy rather than sim city and AoE like gathering resources and build military. The only strategy is be quick and be efficient on the build/train. If you are not quick you can’t be good in this game. 

Siege mobile towers are legitimate offensive towers. Any fixed defense towers are not. One of the most interesting and fun game in 0ad is nomad except that the players positions are too random that a team member can go astray and build in nearby opponents territory. If you happen to build ahead of them you might survive until P2. There might be a chance for the player to survive and make some interesting strategy but is being negated by this tower wars. If these tower (termed as “defense towers”) to tower battle is not allowed the game could be much better with organic unit maneuverings. Well it’s good when playing SP just to have fun.

What I mean with commerce cap is limit resource production to lessen a very fast unit/s production. It’s not just about trading but rather something like producing food, wood and even stone that are unrealistically used. You want to produce thousands of this resources just to get rotten?! Well if units are “eating food”, reloading projectiles and repairing weapons and armor then go produce thousands of them!

Range sieges only have operator for animation purposes. Sieges are manned and when operators are eliminated they should be inoperable. A lot of games are won because even if you don’t have siege support units multiple rams can drastically change the outcome of the game. Beware of Itrelles .

What will you do if you train 75 to 100 women on a 150 to 200 pop? If aggressions occur and you need military units? It’s like abusing women even up to the extent that we joke about players raping his opponents women. At least the AI is programmed so that they don’t spam women and CS are farming with them! In some games or maybe most deleting is a strategy just to avoid enemy loot or promotions. But over production of something is not nice right?!

Heroes are OP especially cavalry or mounted ones. In nomad the team with mounted heroes have always the best chance to win. They are expensive so what there are so much resources to train them, 0ad can produce them easily. But reincarnation is not realistic and care of these heroes are neglected.

My take on the game especially on the MP is that the easier to spam the more it mess the game up. The  the only battle strategy is have resources and spam quickly.

 

[Grigoris]

It could be a nice feature, to change the way of deleting buildings. There are some unlovely things:

- buildings can be destroyed by one click without to get significant ressources, this leads to some weird AI-tactics (f.e. destroying buildings before loosing it), even humans use it.

- connection between "deleting building / status conquer bar" isn't obvious

- sometimes players are cut off from ressources and have a big (useless) city around their cc, but they would need every little piece of material to recruit workers

Building needs workers, ressources, time, why not to make deleting buildings the reverse way of it?

Plus:

- allows to clean up few things: no more possible to delete buildings shortly before siege or loosing it by conquer (normally occupants can't go out without to die), no more need to mix conquering buildings and other elements of gameplay

- allows recycling as new ressource income (needs worker, time), more options&fun for players in some situations

Minus:

- connection hitpoints and recycling a bit tricky to prevent abuse (recycling full damaged buildings, repair ability, .. )

-> possibility to make sink down the building only by owner (reverse of building it): during this action no functionality of building, as it would be built completely new, but full hp&conquer& .. states, repair abilities remain. Ressources are gathered once building got teared down. Reverse of deleting (building up) could be made possible for case owner switches fast.

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 minutes ago, Grigoris said:

connection between "deleting building / status conquer bar" isn't obvious 

What you mean?

5 minutes ago, Grigoris said:

allows to clean up few things: no more possible to delete buildings shortly before siege or loosing it by conquer (normally occupants can't go out without to die), no more need to mix conquering buildings and other elements of gameplay

That not make sense. loosingit by conquer  may be can wait to assimilate. explain more.

 

Yes assimilation similar in RoN. after capture your building must be assimilated.

[Grigoris]

3 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

What you mean?

That not make sense. loosingit by conquer  may be can wait to assimilate. explain more.

 

Yes assimilation similar in RoN. after capture your building must be assimilated.

connection between "deleting building / status conquer bar" isn't obvious

When building is conquered by exactly 50%, it's no more possible to delete it. That isn't very obvious (probably i mean logical ), then only delete button is disabled. It's more an anti-abuse-mechanism, it makes not really sense (?).

allows to clean up few things: no more possible to delete buildings shortly before siege or loosing it by conquer (normally occupants can't go out without to die), no more need to mix conquering buildings and other elements of gameplay

Disabled instant-delete prevents from deleting important buildings (let's say temples, barracks) seconds before conquer state falls under 50% or few seconds before incoming enemy, when you finally loose ground and control. In combat it should be up to enemy to conquer or destroy a building, not to owner, unless he decides early enough to dismantle a building.

How do you mean assimilation in this context? What is RoN?

[Nescio]

1 hour ago, Grigoris said:

What is RoN?

Rise of Nations, a game that has infinite resources, income limits, increasing unit and structure costs, wonders that can only be constructed once, horse archers that shoot while moving, towns that upgrade individually to cities and metropoleis when a sufficient number of different structures is within their inner radius, and a maximum population limit that starts at 50 (?) and can be increased to 250 (?) in steps of 25 by researching technologies, if I recall correctly.

[coworotel]

4 hours ago, Grigoris said:

- buildings can be destroyed by one click without to get significant ressources, this leads to some weird AI-tactics (f.e. destroying buildings before loosing it), even humans use it.

I was going to mention that too. Besides the infamous tactic of capturing then deleting building. Deleting could require a builder to hammer it let's say for 5 seconds.

Edited May 24, 2018 by coworotel

[Servo]

RoN as I said before is my best multiplayer gameplay I have ever played. The problem is I’m a single player type of gamer. I need walls and promotions and better arts that’s why I go with 0ad and abandoning RoN(which I played since 2003 I guess until I discovered and played A21). I did thousands of hours each (no MP)playing AoE, EE, Stronghold, WC3, Civ 3,4&5, CC tiberean and RA. I know most old players in 0ad have played RoN but maybe not the one with having the general from the senate. Let me tell a little story about it for those who hadn’t played it.

Despite having unrealistic infinite resources it’s really hard to amass resources because of the gameplay complexity. It has commerce cap and there are limited slots for resources gatherers. The economic aspects doesn’t need much micromanagement. They have infinite Q on gatherers(military units as well) and keys or hot keys that automatically send them to which resources you want them.

The military aspects is where you need the micro as it is the most important thing. Turtling is not a rewarding strategy. Any unit is very valuable starting from the very beginning as losing one even a gatherer or scouts(either military or gatherer) will put a player in a disadvantage. Loot is tremendously emphasized meaning micromanagement is very important. They allow unit deletion to avoid giving loot to the enemy but no structure deletion, they have it as “razing”. Raiding, sieging, unit countering and even flanking are applied, formation as well.

Although the player needs to only understand the game and use the Civization capability to become good at it the execution needs more precision. The fact that in standard game settings the pros choose the Civ (Aztecs having no economic bonus) and making it the OP faction is just ridiculous. The pros or good players most of the time choose a random faction showing how flexible the game is and how good they really are(I never been a pro but can fill in any vacant spot). Speed clicking helps but not really a necessity. Just a precise execution and a thinking ahead mentality and good judgement.

The game is really good up to Industrial Age as units are still easy to manage. Most multiplayer games are decided before it even reach Enlightenment age on standard setting. Nomad is the most played nowadays but the balance is a bit tilted to favor some factions that have more population leverage.  

Scouting in the beginning is the most important strategy in the very beginning.

There are some very good pro games on YouTube and you will see it’s more fluid than any unit spamming RTS games.

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Servo

[franzliszzt]

Add more types of resources please, like the old '99 Pharaoh