===[COMMITTED]=== Persian Unit Texture Upgrade

[wackyserious]

If Angen's formation/battalion mod (or a similar feature) will be implemented, and as how wowgetoffyourcellphone stated, in the future we could be free to break the rigid player-color inclined unit texture design that is strictly being followed. And again, this throws back the question on whether the game should continue to associate itself with the AoE series.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

what about using color different to color player, which current palette? (8) colors.

Im sure many tones of blue, yellow can be different to our, or a kind of purple.

[Nescio]

If footprints were displayed permanently, regardless whether units are selected or not, then I suppose player colour could be removed entirely from unit textures. I'm not sure that's a good idea, though.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, wackyserious said:

Here is how the player color Kidaris cap looks like on the infantry archer textures.

sorry i can't avoid compare with things that I know. 

now they are the Super Eagles from Nigeria (national team). 

Spoiler

 

[wackyserious]

Aside from earth tones and white, I use hues which are close to the following colors when creating textures to disassociate the rest of the texture from player color.

[][][][][][][][][][] [][][][][][][][][][] COMPARISON [][][][][][][][][][] [][][][][][][][][][]

[][][][][][][][][][] [][][][][][][][][][] COMPARISON [][][][][][][][][][] [][][][][][][][][][]

[][][][][][][][][][] [][][][][][][][][][] COMPARISON [][][][][][][][][][] [][][][][][][][][][]

[wackyserious]

3 minutes ago, Nescio said:

If footprints were displayed permanently, regardless whether units are selected or not, then I suppose player colour could be removed entirely from unit textures. I'm not sure that's a good idea, though.

This is true. It will cause more visual distractions. When I play, I use the display own unit health bar hot keys to locate friendlies in combat. I believe this was also the norm in most RTS, I remember Warcraft 3 had something similar.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

This is true. It will cause more visual distractions. When I play, I use the display own unit health bar hot keys to locate friendlies in combat. I believe this was also the norm in most RTS, I remember Warcraft 3 had something similar.

in Rome total war 2 (Empired divided) they remember vigiles. with simple non distracting color.

but... historical accuracy vs (RTS rules + art concepts).

[Lion.Kanzen]

13 minutes ago, Nescio said:

If footprints were displayed permanently, regardless whether units are selected or not, then I suppose player colour could be removed entirely from unit textures. I'm not sure that's a good idea, though.

some mods does that in total war and in another rts games.

[wackyserious]

20 minutes ago, Nescio said:

If footprints were displayed permanently, regardless whether units are selected or not, then I suppose player colour could be removed entirely from unit textures. I'm not sure that's a good idea, though.

A permanent footprint that could be toggled through a hot key sounds like a good armistice between casual players who care about historicity and aesthetic and competitive players who are concerned with gameplay and player distinction. I want to hear the thoughts of others regarding this.

[Nescio]

Or through an option, similar to range visualizations or rank icons above status bar:

Spoiler

It's worth trying out, although I've no idea how hard it would be to code.

 

Usually I play maximally zoomed out and from a distance it's hard to distinguish player colour, civilization, unit type, or rank, all units look similar.

[Sundiata]

I personally don't have any issues telling my units apart... I prefer the subtle, aesthetic and historical approach to the dogmatic pLaYeR CoLoUr GoEs HeRe approach. Do what works best/looks best on a civ by civ basis. Following the exact same design principles for such a sizeable collection of culturally very divers peoples is a bad idea in my opinion. 

If you have any problem seeing your units in battle, select them and see... Anyway, in the thick of battle things tend to get a little messy. Really messy, actually. I call it part of the immersion   

There are 13 civs and maximum 8 players per game. When things get a little more balanced (remove those weird, uncalled for buffs for the Ptolemies and Celts), then statistically speaking coming across the same civ more than twice in a game is very unlikely. If you can't even tell the civ's apart, you need to invest in some glasses, because they all look very unique... 

 

6 hours ago, wackyserious said:

Here is how the player color Kidaris cap looks like on the infantry archer textures.

Yeah, that's a little bit over top  Especially the green ones look a little "offensive", in terms of colour theory or something.

 

4 hours ago, Nescio said:

Usually I play maximally zoomed out and from a distance it's hard to distinguish player colour, civilization, unit type, or rank, all units look similar.

Then zoom in once in a while... The artists put a lot of effort in the details. They're there to be appreciated  

 

5 hours ago, wackyserious said:

And again, this throws back the question on whether the game should continue to associate itself with the AoE series.

... AoE is old news... We can deliver something nicer/more unique/better/more accurate/more immersive than a 20 year old game, right? We don't have the same nostalgic appeal to make antiquated gameplay and graphics look like fun... If AoE II was released for the first time today, nobody would bat an eye. It would pass into complete oblivion. It's not a good idea to use them as a benchmark anymore. AoE is more of a spiritual ancestor... But it's been 20 years... Technology/computers/processors have evolved since then. 

[Nescio]

24 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

If you can't even tell the civ's apart, you need to invest in some glasses, because they all look very unique... 

Structures, yes, each civilization (except Athens) has its own set and they can be identified at a single glance, as should be. However, units are harder to distinguish:

[Sundiata]

25 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Structures, yes, each civilization (except Athens) has its own set and they can be identified at a single glance, as should be. However, units are harder to distinguish:

Some units are a bit harder, yes, but I still really think any more player colour than that is going to look really kitschy... Most of them are perfectly distinguishable. Player colour is most difficult to discern on those Nuba mercs, but this couldn't possibly cause an issue unless 2 players or more are playing with Kushites and all of those players decide to recruit Nuba mercs (and then decide to attack the enemy Nuba mercs with their own Nuba mercs), which hardly ever happens... The added benefit of slapping more player colour on them is marginal, compared to how unrealistic/kitschy units will start looking. 

In addition to that, you have some sense of spacial awareness, right? When you send your troops somewhere, you remember sending them to that place, right? Or do you have to search for your units every time because you forgot where you left them? Or do you swivel the camera around all the time, loosing track of which side of the battlefield your army is set up on? 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Sundiata

[Nescio]

10 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

In addition to that, you have some sense of spacial awareness, right? When you send your troops somewhere, you remember sending them to that place, right? Or do you have to search for your units every time because you forgot where you left them? Or do you swivel the camera around all the time, loosing track of which side of the battlefield your army is set up on? 

Actually I rely heavily on the mini-map, where structures and units are simply player-coloured dots

[Sundiata]

5 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Actually I rely heavily on the mini-map, where structures and units are simply player-coloured dots

Having an expandable more detailed version of the mini-map would be cool huh...

[Nescio]

1 minute ago, Sundiata said:

Having an expandable more detailed version of the mini-map would be cool huh...

An option to toggle-off the terrain background in the mini-map would also be nice.

Anyway, we're going off-topic.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

An option to toggle-off the terrain background in the mini-map would also be nice.

Anyway, we're going off-topic.

@stanislas69  @LordGood I think is time to discuss a topic about these matters.  in my opinion  I want realism but I'm not multiplayer guy.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

WHY DO WE ALWAYS FIGHT ABOUT THIS. JUST INCREASE THE SATURATION OF THE PLAYER COLOR LIKE IN DELENDA EST. KEEP A CONSISTENT PLAYER COLOR SCHEME ON ALL THE UNIT TEXTURES. GAWWWWDUH.  

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

WHY DO WE ALWAYS FIGHT ABOUT THIS. JUST INCREASE THE SATURATION OF THE PLAYER COLOR LIKE IN DELENDA EST. KEEP A CONSISTENT PLAYER COLOR SCHEME ON ALL THE UNIT TEXTURES. GAWWWWDUH.  

i can imagine this ...

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

2 hours ago, Nescio said:

Structures, yes, each civilization (except Athens) has its own set and they can be identified at a single glance, as should be. However, units are harder to distinguish:

Units may be hard to distinguish because of the mosh pit combat of the game (please add battalions: BfME2), but I never really have a hard time distinguishing my units from the AI's in Delenda Est, mostly because you see one side attacking another side and there are a large number of ranged units standing afar from the mosh pit showing you a battle line and direction of attack. Also, if an enemy building is being attacked, it is likely not the enemy's units attacking it (pretty obvious). DE's more saturated player colors also help do the trick. 

It just seems more consistent to me to make fabric items player color, but not armor. Armor should be clear that it's armor and not just a player color shirt. That's why I would rather not have player color on helmets or head gear unless they are the decorative elements like plumes or crests. Bronze and Iron and other metals should look metal. If you are depicting a linothorax, then it is visually lost if it is covered in player color. The colors of the jackets and tunics of the Persian archer Wack posted aren't against what I just said since it's all cloth, but it would be nice that something (the kidaris hats) aren't player color too, for one thing so the units don't blend together in a sea of silky sherbet. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[wackyserious]

3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

but it would be nice that something (the kidaris hats) aren't player color too

What if I add the white variant and have a ratio of:

3 - White

1 - Light tone (Player color)

1 - Mid tone (Player color)

1 - Dark tone (Player color)

I use this because I find it nice, specially when it blends with a body mesh set it player color. Say for example, Intense player color could show up in a unit once in a while, if both the dark toned body player color and kidaris cap player color would display together in one unit. A lighter toned one could also be a possibility, vice versa and a good mix between, as seen in the screenshot.

I think increasing the white ratio was the key.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

4 hours ago, wackyserious said:

I use this because I find it nice, specially when it blends with a body mesh set it player color. Say for example, Intense player color could show up in a unit once in a while, if both the dark toned body player color and kidaris cap player color would display together in one unit. A lighter toned one could also be a possibility, vice versa and a good mix between, as seen in the screenshot.

 

Making so many shades or tones of the same player color #1 reduces the effectiveness of player color (I thought player color should be obvious), and #2 adds visual confusion (now it's all pureed and blended like a smoothy). If, as I'd prefer, player color was strong and vibrant (like in DE), but used selectively, then you don't get some mass of vague player color, you get visual clarity. 

[wackyserious]

This is how it looks like on saturated player color by the way. I also included the basic infantry spearmen texture.

For play-ability, I guess you are right about that. What was on my mind when I created the three-tone pattern as to make things look more natural and avoid the units too obviously look like each others clone, this would be cool, yes, if battalions are enabled.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

33 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

This is how it looks like on saturated player color by the way. I also included the basic infantry spearmen texture.

For play-ability, I guess you are right about that. What was on my mind when I created the three-tone pattern as to make things look more natural and avoid the units too obviously look like each others clone, this would be cool, yes, if battalions are enabled.

My point was that you could use less color if the saturation is turned up! 

[Nescio]

Related, player colour for Persian elephants (back) is clear at a single glance, for Kushite elephants (front) it's not: