Hellenizing the Ptolemies

[Sundiata]

16 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Those Ptolemaic obelisks are a lot smaller (the one in the Met is under 2 m; the Philae obelisk is under 4 m); functionally they were similar to other Ptolemaic steles such as the Rosetta stone.

 

25 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

In the Ptolemaic Dynasty, obelisks continued to be made, and old ones re-used, both large and small. 

 

You argued to remove the obelisks from Ptolemaic buildings, so I illustrated that obelisks were still being made. So do you agree not to remove them? Just to scale them down? The base you see with the Phillae obelisk is original, by the way, putting it's total size at more than 5 meters, not taking into account any other pedestals or steps that might further increase the height.

Not huge, but not exactly small either...

 

Also, according to Pliny, Ptolemy II went to great lengths to transport an obelisk of Nectanebo to Alexandria... So there's no reason to believe that they only decorated their cities with "small" newly carved obelisks, but were using old, larger ones as well.

[Sundiata]

23 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I don't think the design of the CC is a problem from that standpoint. It just represents some generic civic building near the center of town. Nothing specific. The only problem really is just the same problem as the whole set.

The set itself is so gorgeous that it would be a shame to remove it completely from the game. Perhaps they can be renamed and used in a Jebel Barkal-esque skirmish or random map set in Egypt.

The set is really not good from a historic perspective. The temple of Edfu is perfect, and the Light House, Library and mercenary camp are heading in the right direction, but the rest is really not good. I would suggest to use the models for an Egyptian faction in the new Mythology mod @Rolf Dew is working on. Because more than anything, those structures are based on Age of Mythology, not history. Inward slanting walls really weren't a thing. Only pyramids, mastabas and temple pylons had those...

[Nescio]

10 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

You argued to remove the obelisks from Ptolemaic buildings, so I illustrated that obelisks were still being made. So do you agree not to remove them? Just to scale them down? The base you see with the Phillae obelisk is original, by the way, putting it's total size at more than 5 meters, not taking into account any other pedestals or steps that might further increase the height.

Not huge, but not exactly small either...

Also, according to Pliny, Ptolemy II went to great lengths to transport an obelisk of Nectanebo to Alexandria... So there's no reason to believe that they only decorated their cities with "small" newly carved obelisks, but were using old, larger ones as well.

To clarify, I'm not saying obelisks didn't exist in Ptolemaic Egypt. My point is they were rare, certainly not something you would see in every Ptolemaic settlement. The fact that Pliny and others mention them illustrates how uncommon they were.

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Sundiata]

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

To clarify, I'm not saying obelisks didn't exist in Ptolemaic Egypt. My point is they were rare, certainly not something you would see in every Ptolemaic settlement. The fact that Pliny and others mention them illustrates how uncommon they were.

To clarify myself as well, I'm also not saying that the Ptolemies were spamming obelisks all over the place. They might have been relatively rare, but so were Ptolemaic settlements themselves... The account by Piny is only one account from 2000 years ago. The fact that we still have Ptolemaic era obelisks today also suggests there were more than 3 of them... 

The thing is that the Ptolemies in 0AD need to be Hellenized, yes. But they shouldn't look like a generic Hellenic civ either. They should have a (historically accurate) Egyptian veneer, and what screams Egyptian more than a pair of (slightly downscaled) obelisks, sphinxes, and other Ancient Egyptian statues that were in fact used by the Ptolemies in their Greek settlements as decoration (and legitimization)? 

Edited January 24, 2019 by Sundiata

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

The set is really not good from a historic perspective. The temple of Edfu is perfect, and the Light House, Library and mercenary camp are heading in the right direction, but the rest is really not good. I would suggest to use the models for an Egyptian faction in the new Mythology mod @Rolf Dew is working on. Because more than anything, those structures are based on Age of Mythology, not history. Inward slanting walls really weren't a thing. Only pyramids, mastabas and temple pylons had those...

I thought the temple was pretty good too. 

[Nescio]

32 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

To clarify myself as well, I'm also not saying that the Ptolemies were spamming obelisks all over the place. They might have been relatively rare, but so were Ptolemaic settlements themselves... The account by Piny is only one account from 2000 years ago. The fact that we still have Ptolemaic era obelisks today also suggests there were more than 3 of them... 

The thing is that the Ptolemies in 0AD need to be Hellenized, yes. But they shouldn't look like a generic Hellenic civ either. They should have a (historically accurate) Egyptian veneer, and what screams Egyptian more than a pair of (slightly downscaled) obelisks, sphinxes, and other Ancient Egyptian statues that were in fact used by the Ptolemies in their Greek settlements as decoration (and legitimization)? 

With Ptolemaic settlement I meant any settlement controlled by the Ptolemies, which means hundreds of cities and thousands of villages. Ideally the Ptolemies could use a new architecture set that blends Greek and Egyptian influences (I'm quite fond of the Seleucid structures), but I realize that's a lot of work. Removing the obelisks from the civic centre and military colony can be done in minutes, which would improve historical accuracy. I'm not opposed to the obelisk per se, but I think it's inappropiate and unrealistic to have it included in these central structures. If map makers want an obelisk, they can use the existing other/obelisk.xml template.

[Genava55]

I want the Thalamegos!!!

Spoiler

Joke aside, if it can help you :

THE LOST PALACE: Hellenistic Palace of Alexandria

https://www.academia.edu/6703691/THE_LOST_PALACE_Hellenistic_Palace_of_Alexandria_Julia_Gruhot_ARTH_302

reconstruction of the palace area in Alexandria
https://www.academia.edu/4662183/reconstruction_of_the_palace_area_in_Alexandria

 

[Sundiata]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I thought the temple was pretty good too. 

I forgot.. The temple looks really great! Except it's not really a temple but a kiosk (and was part of a larger whole)... Also, I'm pretty sure it's modeled after Trajan's Kiosk at Philae. Roman... I'm not opposed to the structure though, because it's in-line with the Ptolemaic Egyptian style architecture (like Kom Ombo). 

 

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

With Ptolemaic settlement I meant any settlement controlled by the Ptolemies, which means hundreds of cities and thousands of villages. Ideally the Ptolemies could use a new architecture set that blends Greek and Egyptian influences (I'm quite fond of the Seleucid structures), but I realize that's a lot of work. Removing the obelisks from the civic centre and military colony can be done in minutes, which would improve historical accuracy. I'm not opposed to the obelisk per se, but I think it's inappropiate and unrealistic to have it included in these central structures. If map makers want an obelisk, they can use the existing other/obelisk.xml template.

I don't understand this line of reasoning. We already established that (smaller) obelisks were still produced in the Ptolemaic period and that older obelisks were being repurposed. So how could there be anything inappropriate or unrealistic about a pair of obelisks adorning a Ptolemaic civic center?

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

 

.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Diatryma]

trying : Magna @#$% laude

[LordGood]

@Anaxandridas ho Skandiates I'm curious as to what you think of the swept corners on the towers in the Palestrina Nile mosaic, I do believe they were suggested and prototyped for the Ptolemies architecture set, wall towers specifically,  but were deemed a bit too fanciful for the set. I cant find the sketches or prototype itself but I'm wondering if this was misread or fancifully exaggerated.

[LordGood]

found em lol

[LordGood]

I do believe I should give these another shot, its been a few years, after all

[LordGood]

a bit more tactfully done if i do say so myself lol

[LordGood]

i dunno, thoughts?

[WhiteTreePaladin]

I like both. Perhaps one can be used for a different civilization?

[Diatryma]

@Sundiata

[LordGood]

here's with the desaturated kushite set

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

We need those papyrus and trail actors.

[Diatryma]

we can have Numidians?

[LordGood]

10 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

We need those papyrus and trail actors.

They're nice huh? Haha

have fun!

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates