metagame MetaGameV2 Mod Version 2

[Eraser]

Hello again,

I'm glad to present you the second version of the metagame, where many things have changed.

Game:

Updated 28-11-2016 IMPORTANT FIX - Marian Reforms Missing

MetaGameV2_2.zip

Patch:

Updated 28-11-2016 IMPORTANT FIX - Marian Reforms Missing

MetaGameV2_2.patch

Docs:

CivBalance.odt

Main changes:

• Creation of category subtypes to improve the strong-weakness system (and make it more diverse)
  • Rush: Strongest in phase 1. Weak in phase 2. Weakest in phase 3.
    • Successors
      • Changes
      1. Can't build fortress.
      2. Siege only avaible on CC.
      3. Champions can only be recruited on Militar Colony.
      4. Militar Colony can be built on phase 1.
         • Ptolemies
           • No changes
         • Seleucids
           • Changes
           1. Seleucid corrals can recruit militia cavalry.
           2. Militia infantry also affected in matter of costs and debuff.
  • Rush-Wall: Stronger in phase 1. Normal in phase 2. Weaker in phase 3.
    • Celts
    1. Melonas in age 2.
    2. Champions can be only recruited on CC.
    3. Start with one unit of the same type you'll use to rush.
       • Britons
         • Dog rush. Kennel in phase 1. Cost 0.
         • 
         • New tech Woad Painting. Puts a fear aura over your units that'll lower enemy citizen's attack on sight by 20%. Don't affect champs.
         • Lowered dramatically longsword champions armor. They got slow yet deadly attack rates.
       • Gauls
         • Druid rush. Temples in phase 1. Cost 0.
         • 
         • Set fanatics armor to 0. Boosted heath, speed and attack rate. They can't capture buildings, only attack.
  • Wall-Rush: Strong in phase 1. Strongest in phase 2. Weak in phase 3.
    • Carthaginians
      • Wall role. Walls cost 0 and have enormous resistance but they've got the slowest build rate.
      • 
      • Removed Carthaginian Embassy. Carthage doesn't got barracks. All mercenary citizens and champion elephants are recruited in markets.
      • New building Tophet. Reduces Sacred Band cost and maximum population by 50% for each Tophet.
      • 
    • Persians
      • Wall role. Boost walls with Persian Architecture after you build them.
        • 
        • Units now cost food only.
        • Persian storehouses give a slow trickle in all resources.
  • Wall-Eco: Weak in phase 1. Strongest in phase 2. Strong in phase 3.
    • Mauryans
      • Pillar of Ashoka effects are stackable.
    • Iberians
      • Reverential Monument effects are stackable.
      • Rework of the Iberian Maisu Burdina Langileak Tech. For each Blacksmith you control you reduce unit's metal costs of your team by 10%.
      • New building: Foundry. Special armory that has the Iberian Special Techs. Unique building.
      • 
  • Eco-Wall: Weaker in phase 1. Normal in phase 2. Stronger in phase 3.
    • Hellenes
      • Civic Stoa, Royal Stoa and Theatron are considered influent buildings, they're visible to all players.
      • No Theatron build limit.
        • Spartans
          • New technology Femine Mystique. Improve all women's economic parameters by 25% but increase cost in 25%.
          • Spartan houses can spawn women without need of the house tech.
          • New building Tall Spikes. Special building for Spartan women. Deals heavy damage to cavalry on contact.
          • 
          • New building Small Spikes.  Special building for Spartan women. Deals average damage to all units except for siege.
          • 
        • Athenians
          • New building Propylaea. Doubles other player's structure build time. Visible to all players.
          • 
  • Eco: Weakest in phase 1. Weak in phase 2. Strongest in phase 3.
    • Macedonians
      • New tech Military Reforms. Allows to build new building Reformed Army Barracks. Each one can recruit 16 Lothos pikeman lines, which are population free. Can heal Lothos infantry.
      • 
      • Siege workshop can also be built on enemy/ally territory. Can build ballistas in Age 2.
    • Romans
      • New tech Marian Reforms. Allows to build new building Tent. Each one can recruit up to 8 Contubernium swordsmen squads, which are population free. Can heal Contubernium units.
      • 
      • Rome champions cost the same as the hero, to reduce their numbers in battle and enhance their role as the general's vanguard. Infantry got a vanguard aura that increases hero's armor if the hero is near, and cavalry increase attack.
      • 
      • 
      • New skin for Rome's outposts.
      • 

Edited November 28, 2016 by Eraser

[Eraser]

Right now I need people to test the changes above, next Saturday 26th and Sunday 27th I will organize an ffa match (random civ), so I can see what's unbalanced and how much the battlefield changes with these version.

I think the games will be 5-6 PM UTC (6-7 Spain,Germany,France) (USA no idea). Please reply to this post so I can see how many we will be.

Since I can't host, I'll need someone to do that, I'll see.

If you don't know how to install the mod, please ask here or go to the first post, where I explained it:

Feel free to comment on the changes, feedback will be appreciated to make updates on the mod. Ideas, complaints, etc. will be welcome.

Thx

[Eraser]

Also if you got anyone you know who'll like to participate, bring him. That'll save me lots of spam on the IRC and lobby

About the reform techs of the mace and rome civs to ignore popcap, I've yet to see how dangerous that can be for the lags (thought dogs and sheeps doesn't have popcap neither).

[Lion.Kanzen]

Quote

• Successors
  • Changes
  1. Can't build fortress.
  2. Siege only avaible on CC.
  3. Champions can only be recruited on Militar Colony.
  4. Militar Colony can be built on phase 1.
     • Ptolemies
       • No changes
     • Seleucids
       • Changes
       1. Seleucid corrals can recruit militia cavalry.
       2. Militia infantry also affected in matter of costs and debuff.

I don't see the point of this changes.

[Eraser]

Well, the idea is to make them look like full rush, giving them not only early attack but also the chance to expand their eco quickly in case they find themselves against a wall civ that will be able to resist all early attempts to finish them.

Changes on sele are to improve the militia rush. In the test I did with elexis, to be able to rush with sele you needed to deplete all the corral eco by taking all the corral cavalry to the enemy. This is a huge handicap, so once you do that, you should have a way to replenish them fast once you lost them. Since they're militia you basically need a guy, a weapon and a horse.

Also, the reason why I boosted corrals was because the civ is currently designed as a cavalry civ (thought they had great infantry too) since sele had great cav generals. Also I'm thinking that special techs like the Nisean War Horses could be developed there.

The militia infantry now have same changes as militia cavalry to make sele slightly better than ptole in late game. In the civ scale, ptol is meant to be unmatched in rush, so sele needs to fill that weakness in late game. Cheaper, weak builders are a great excuse, and also go with the colony militia the seleucids had.

But in exchange, their performance in late game must be affected somehow. And I thought a way to do that would be to remove fortress so they need  colonies to make champions. That'ld also force the player to work more on the successors style, making their late game growth more unique. And about the siege, I put it in there because I had to put it somewhere, got to lower their performance in late game but I can't deprive them of siege. I'm also thinking than instead of CC, maybe they could inherit a debuffed version of the mace siege workshop to make siege.

 

But I might be wrong in some points, so I'll find out in tomorrow's test.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Quote

• anges

1. Can't build fortress.
2. Siege only avaible on CC.
3. Champions can only be recruited on Militar Colony.
4. Militar Colony can be built on phase 1.

The first points are kind of annoying

[Eraser]

7 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

The first points are kind of annoying

That's the handicap for using civs that can kill in phase 1 smoothly. They shouldn't defend themselves as good as civs that can do little in early game.

Also phase 1 colonies it could even be too powerful, won't know until I get feedback from players.  

And if I see fortress don't give them too much defense in late game, I'll put them back.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Eraser

[Eraser]

As long as you give replay data to prove that my changes are unbalanced, or giving me reasonable alternatives to make this metagame better, I'll surely include them.

I'm thinking on returning the castles to sele and ptol but boosting their costs.

Also mace and rome reform techs to ignore poplimit seems very dangerous. I'ld make them free but count as pop instead.

[Eraser]

To return to sele and ptol the abilty to make fortress, I have to think on a serious debuff (cost,armor,health,arrows) since those civs have to be the weakest on late game. Would welcome suggestions on how to do that.

Regarding to the version 3 of this mod, I'm thinking on implementing this weakness/strength system:

 

• Melee
  • Sword
    • weak against longsword
    • weak against pike
    • weak against mace
    • strong against bow
    • strong against sling
    • strong against javelin
  • Longsword
    • strong against sword
    • strong against pike
    • strong against mace
    • weak against bow
    • weak against sling
    • weak against javelin
  • Spear
    • no strong points nor weaknesses
  • Pike
    • strong against sword
    • weak against longsword
    • strong against mace
    • weak against bow
    • strong against sling
    • weak against javelin
  • Mace
    • strong against sword
    • weak against longsword
    • weak against pike
    • strong against bow
    • strong against sling
    • strong against javelin
• Ranged
  • Bow
    • weak against sword
    • strong against longsword
    • strong against pike
    • weak against mace
    • weak against sling
    • strong against javelin
  • Sling
    • weak against sword
    • strong against longsword
    • strong against pike
    • weak against mace
    • strong against bow
    • weak against javelin
  • Javelin
    • weak against sword
    • strong against longsword
    • strong against pike
    • weak against mace
    • weak against arrow
    • strong against sling

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 minutes ago, Eraser said:

...

Regarding to the version 3 of this mod, I'm thinking on implementing this weakness/strength system:

 

...

counter system?

Edited November 27, 2016 by Lion.Kanzen

[Eraser]

Yes, it will end the one-unit-blind-endless-spam once for all. Now you'll have to create big armies with different types of units, and the outcome will be decided on how you maneuver.

[Eraser]

Also would welcome posting here the replay data of the testing games you do against AI or between you, along with your feedback, like elexis did. It helps me a lot to discover flaws on my designs, like rush civs that defend better than wall civs, wall civs that do better eco than eco civs, and eco civs that rush better than rush civs. Can do against AI but would recommend games between you, since AI can't exploit unique capabilities of civs like a player would do.

Right now would specially need two specific replays:

- Pure Rush. Ptolemies or Seleucid test. Currently they can't build fortress, but they can recruit champions in militar colonies, which can be built now in phase 1 in order to make them control early game. Determine how much the lack of fortress affects those civs and if returning it would make them very competitive in late game (which shouldn't be), and if the ability to build militar colonies in phase 1 makes their expansion too fast.

- Pure Eco. Rome or Macedon test. Their reform techs were inspired on the concept of them being great conquerors and how they built enormous empires from small countries, increasing their population dramatically until few could still challenge them. Their weaknesses resides on what would happen if those civs were smothered before their gold age, but the reform techs could be dangerous to the game itself since ignoring poplimit would force the game to process enormous amounts of entities. Determine how dangerous can be that in terms of performance and balance and an alternate solution.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Eraser

[Eraser]

I will wait on this thread to receive the necessary amount of replay data and feedback to start the v3 of this mod.

Feel free to propose, test and complain as much as you want.

Thx.

[Eraser]

Also new concepts for the v3:

 

[Eraser]

Wonder who I'll have to ask permission to make a subforum for this mod's threads, since I'ld like to make posts with releases and posts with spoilers of the next one, apart from keeping the posts in order.

[Stan`]

@feneur should be a good start

[Lion.Kanzen]

@feneur

[vladislavbelov]

Any tools which could check the balance (i.e. play non-visual 1000x matches between AIs)?

[Eraser]

1 hour ago, vladislavbelov said:

Any tools which could check the balance (i.e. play non-visual 1000x matches between AIs)?

I fear AI currently can't exploit unique most civ mechanics afaik, specially the new ones I introduced (I've seen a Rome AI expand using Castrum thought).

I would suggest doing 1vs1 matches, be it against AI or a real player, so at least there's a player checking if things are too op.

With x2 speed I don't think it will take too much time, specially the first test proposal I posted above. Also, you can play through the Atlas Editor, generate a map and set it to max speed against AI players, with that insane speed It'll take you less than five minutes even with eco.

If you see something too OP or too POOP, please post the replay so I can fix it somehow. My two main suspects are:

On 27/11/2016 at 11:44 PM, Eraser said:

Also would welcome posting here the replay data of the testing games you do against AI or between you, along with your feedback, like elexis did. It helps me a lot to discover flaws on my designs, like rush civs that defend better than wall civs, wall civs that do better eco than eco civs, and eco civs that rush better than rush civs. Can do against AI but would recommend games between you, since AI can't exploit unique capabilities of civs like a player would do.

Right now would specially need two specific replays:

- Pure Rush. Ptolemies or Seleucid test. Currently they can't build fortress, but they can recruit champions in militar colonies, which can be built now in phase 1 in order to make them control early game. Determine how much the lack of fortress affects those civs and if returning it would make them very competitive in late game (which shouldn't be), and if the ability to build militar colonies in phase 1 makes their expansion too fast.

- Pure Eco. Rome or Macedon test. Their reform techs were inspired on the concept of them being great conquerors and how they built enormous empires from small countries, increasing their population dramatically until few could still challenge them. Their weaknesses resides on what would happen if those civs were smothered before their gold age, but the reform techs could be dangerous to the game itself since ignoring poplimit would force the game to process enormous amounts of entities. Determine how dangerous can be that in terms of performance and balance and an alternate solution.

 

BTW contacted @feneur  via private, when this mod has the subforum zone, I'll make posts for the replays, apart from visual spoilers of the v3 with things I've been up to

Thank you very much for your interest.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Eraser

[Eraser]

Also @user1 told me there was a player in the lobby looking for mods to play. Should be under the nick of "hellhog". If you need someone to host some 1vs1 testing you can try. I will do that myself on the next days. We could do an FFA even.

[vladislavbelov]

1 hour ago, Eraser said:

I fear AI currently can't exploit unique most civ mechanics afaik, specially the new ones I introduced (I've seen a Rome AI expand using Castrum thought).

I would suggest doing 1vs1 matches, be it against AI or a real player, so at least there's a player checking if things are too op.

AIs were only as example, I usually test (not 0AD) a balance with python scripts: generate all permutations of possible sides, simulate (very naive) and search some easy situations. Probably for the balance of the 0AD we could use something like this or whatever else.

[niektb]

@wraitii wrote a template analyzer a while ago. I think that does exactly what you mean, @vladislavbelov

[elexis]

6 hours ago, Eraser said:

BTW contacted @feneur  via private, when this mod has the subforum zone, I'll make posts for the replays, apart from visual spoilers of the v3 with things I've been up to

If you continue to write up the new version announcements as nicely as this, people will find the updates in this thread easily. Since replays only work for the most recent update, it would make sense to have them in this thread as well  (and they are easy to find if you use the format proposed in the a21 thread).

5 hours ago, vladislavbelov said:

I usually test (not 0AD) a balance with python scripts

Does it point out something about naked fanatics? That's the most detested unit this release.

[vladislavbelov]

2 hours ago, niektb said:

@wraitii wrote a template analyzer a while ago. I think that does exactly what you mean, @vladislavbelov

Probably yes, I didn't mean something specific, just some test tool. Because pvp matches or manual checking-s are very subjective, we could notice only very visible bugs.

 

[Stan`]

"Not 0ad" =P