Heroes and Champion Unit for Han Dyanasty

[Mega Mania]

As a fan of the Rise of the East mod, i wonder if the team have done any research on Western Han Heroes and Champion unit?

[Stan`]

			"Heroes":			[				{					"Name": "Liu Bang",					"Class": "Cavalry Hero",					"Armament": "Bronze Jian",					"Emblem": "",					"History": "Liu Bang was a peasant who lead a rebellion force to topple the Qin dynasty and proceeded to become the first Emperor of the Han dynasty. During his reign he lowered taxes and encouraged agriculture growth, as well as made peace with the Xiongnu." 				},				{					"Name": "Wei Qing",					"Class": "Cavalry Hero",					"Armament": "Lian Nu",					"Emblem": "",					"History": "As a general of the Han Dynasty, Wei Qing is best acclaimed for his campaigns against Xiongnu, a series of nomadic tribes residing in northern China during the time period. In addition to his unmatched quality as a leader of men, he was a brilliant marksman and possessed remarkable horsemanship." 				},				{					"Name": "Han Xin",					"Class": "Infantry Hero",					"Armament": "Qiang",					"Emblem": "",					"History": "Han Xin was a military general who served under Liu Bang, and is renowned as one of the Three Heroes of the early Han Dynasty. Many Chinese idioms originated from his specific warfare strategies. Thanks to Han Xin's brilliant flanking manuevers against Zhang Han, Han forces emerged victorious over the Three Qins in late BC 206."				} 			]

According to the civ.json those were planned, now if you could find info and mostly reference, I'd be happy.

[Mega Mania]

You seems to forget about the other heroes and champion unit, for champion unit you may use Qi Men Guards and later Yu Ling Guards, plus they could be the champion cavalry units for Han army.

[Stan`]

Any idea what they look like ? I was not forgetting just add no idea what should be used

[Mega Mania]

For the so called Feathered Forest Guards or Yu Ling Guards you may use this:

For head gear or helmet:

For the body armour, this might help:

For weapons and further detail:

Actually, Qi Men Guard share little differences with their Yu Ling counterpart because they are cavalry unit, so it would be good if you just have one guard unit instead of two.

[Radagast.]

Great! Thank you!

If the visual appearance didn't differ, then perhaps the actor could be reused, but the stats of the two guard types might still be too different to merge both in one?

Please allow, what do you mean by "because they are a cavalry unit". Does it mean that cavalry units in general (within almost all civs) shared little differences?

Thanks again, also for the excellent texture references. Amazing research showing the full picture.

[oshron]

not sure what teh timespan for Rise of the East is, but heroes could be derived from Romance of the Three Kingdoms

[auron2401]

Romance of the three kingdoms is about the fall of han, not really about the han itself.

Can't really imagine the criteria for 'heroes' if you were to pick 3 out of the romance of the three kingdoms, though. So many famous names, so many stereotypes... Would it be leaders(of the 3 kingdoms)? Liu Bei Cao Cao Sun Ce/Sun Quan? (Sun ce was called the 'little conqueror' and kind of set the groundworks for sun quan to work with)

Or their greatest Strategists? Zhuge Liang Zhou Yu Sima Yi?
Maybe the greatest warriors of the time? Which would be Guan Yu Lu Bu Zhao Yun?
All those names are up for debate, mind.

No. No Definitely Not. Too many famous so called 'heroes' to draw from.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Later period, at end of the dynasty, but interesting video.

[Stan`]

not sure what teh timespan for Rise of the East is, but heroes could be derived from Romance of the Three Kingdoms

The timespan is the same as 0ad. roughly -200 +200.

Romance of the three kingdoms is about the fall of han, not really about the han itself.

Can't really imagine the criteria for 'heroes' if you were to pick 3 out of the romance of the three kingdoms, though. So many famous names, so many stereotypes... Would it be leaders(of the 3 kingdoms)? Liu Bei Cao Cao Sun Ce/Sun Quan? (Sun ce was called the 'little conqueror' and kind of set the groundworks for sun quan to work with)

Or their greatest Strategists? Zhuge Liang Zhou Yu Sima Yi?

Maybe the greatest warriors of the time? Which would be Guan Yu Lu Bu Zhao Yun?

All those names are up for debate, mind.

No. No Definitely Not. Too many famous so called 'heroes' to draw from.

We already chose the heroes And I think redcliff will help me for the references on those

Later period, at end of the dynasty, but interesting video.

Lion there is a whole movie translated in spanish on youtube That movie is redcliff

[Ayakashi]

ROTTK heroes we can save for part II of 0AD right? More appropriate for the time period (1-500AD).

You can easily justify their inclusion though! Since much of the story and conflicts takes place during the finals years of the Han as opposed to after its collapse.

Having Guan Yu as a hero will be super rad though!

Edited August 20, 2014 by Ayakashi

[Mega Mania]

Great! Thank you!

If the visual appearance didn't differ, then perhaps the actor could be reused, but the stats of the two guard types might still be too different to merge both in one?

Please allow, what do you mean by "because they are a cavalry unit". Does it mean that cavalry units in general (within almost all civs) shared little differences?

Thanks again, also for the excellent texture references. Amazing research showing the full picture.

It's up to you after all, but i think you should keep Yu Ling instead of Qi Men because later period saw the merging of Qi Men into Yu Ling army thus making Qi Men less important the Yu Ling.

Both Yu Ling and Qi Men was a product by Emperor Wu's anti Hsiung Nu policy, since warfare in the vast steppe requires mobility then cavalry are the only ideal unit to counter Hsiung Nu attack.

[Stan`]

[Mega Mania]

Partially right, in fact Western Han elite cavalry do not have horse armor.

Here's a more accurate Eastern Han cavalry:

After doing some research, i conclude that full horse armor didn't exists in Eastern Han dynasty.

[Stan`]

So which helmet is accurate ?

Actually I need to know what I should model to fit the time frame ie I want a picture with the guy armor, the horse armor, and the helmet.

Edited September 6, 2014 by stanislas69

[Mega Mania]

Here it is:

[SDM]

With regards to references, I think we should not rely on Red Cliff too much because it is essentially a Hollywood anachronism of events. Red Cliff is made for entertainment, not for authenticity. So let's try to find better sources and use Red Cliff only as a discussion point.

[wolflance]

With regards to references, I think we should not rely on Red Cliff too much because it is essentially a Hollywood anachronism of events. Red Cliff is made for entertainment, not for authenticity. So let's try to find better sources and use Red Cliff only as a discussion point.

The Red Cliff is very accurate on historical accuracy as far as Chinese movie goes. There are some inaccuracy and anachronism (They use Western Han period clothing while the timeline is set in late Eastern Han/Three Kingdoms, but that is because Eastern Han archaeological finds are way too scarce to reconstruct anything concrete).

We can disregard the fancy costume/armour on named characters, those giant shields and round shields from the first movie, outdated or anachronistic weapons like ge (戈) ,Guandao and that horse-drawn chain...thing, serious lack of crossbows, and crazy martial art moves. Other than that, it is actually quite good in the costume department.

Edited October 27, 2014 by wolflance

[Mega Mania]

The Red Cliff is very accurate on historical accuracy as far as Chinese movie goes. There are some inaccuracy and anachronism (They use Western Han period clothing while the timeline is set in late Eastern Han/Three Kingdoms, but that is because Eastern Han archaeological finds are way too scarce to reconstruct anything concrete).

We can disregard the fancy costume/armour on named characters, those giant shields and round shields from the first movie, outdated or anachronistic weapons like ge (戈) ,Guandao and that horse-drawn chain...thing, serious lack of crossbows, and crazy martial art moves. Other than that, it is actually quite good in the costume department.

Agreed.

[SDM]

The Red Cliff is very accurate on historical accuracy as far as Chinese movie goes. There are some inaccuracy and anachronism (They use Western Han period clothing while the timeline is set in late Eastern Han/Three Kingdoms, but that is because Eastern Han archaeological finds are way too scarce to reconstruct anything concrete).

We can disregard the fancy costume/armour on named characters, those giant shields and round shields from the first movie, outdated or anachronistic weapons like ge (戈) ,Guandao and that horse-drawn chain...thing, serious lack of crossbows, and crazy martial art moves. Other than that, it is actually quite good in the costume department.

That's very informative! Thank you for clarifying.

[Wesley]

Interesting I'm researching the Xiongnu the Han steppe nomad rivals and most of the uniforms are similar. More fur on the nomads. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu Lots of hero names on that wikipedia page and the silk road wikipedia page. The Han were bottled up in whats roughly one quarter of modern China by the Xiongnu. 

[Sundiata]

Although the Han Chinese are indeed awesome in their own right, I believe the addition of the "Western" Scythians, and the "Eastern" Xiongnu, either as playable civs or as mini-civs, would firmly link China to the other civs already in the game. 

It would be very interesting for future campaigns and lays the foundation of the Silk Road. 

Edited April 11, 2017 by Sundiata

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 4/11/2017 at 9:48 AM, Sundiata said:

Although the Han Chinese are indeed awesome in their own right, I believe the addition of the "Western" Scythians, and the "Eastern" Xiongnu, either as playable civs or as mini-civs, would firmly link China to the other civs already in the game. 

It would be very interesting for future campaigns and lays the foundation of the Silk Road. 

Scythians would be great to add for the main game, while the Xiongnu for Terra Magna.

 

re: Champions.

 

I've done a lot of reading on the Han. Too much reading, actually, and I didn't take notes. lol, so now I have to go back and read again. But... one thing I did take from my reading what at various times during the empire, the emperors would create different "guard" units for different purposes. For instance, at one point there was a guard unit created specifically to guard the gates to the palace. And these guys would go with the emperor on hunts. This kind of things is all over the place. So, for the infantry champion, I was thinking of something kind of generic, like "Palace Guard." A champion infantry archer which can switch to spear or two-handed sword and back to bow again.

 

For the cavalry champion, I was thinking a heavy lancer that can do the same thing, switch to bow and then back to lance. I do this kind of thing in DE, successfully, with the Mauryan Maiden Archer. This would be the Qin Men Guard Cavalry?

 

Anyway, here's what I got for the Palace Guard Archer -- Hu Ben? --and his sword version:

 

I was thinking of giving them new shield textures. I also think the feathers on their helmets should be bigger and more flamboyant. Should they be more casually dressed? @wolflance @Ayakashi

 

Also, maybe the tall feather things on their backs can go on the Imperial Guard Cavalry, Qin Men?

 

 

Edited June 1, 2017 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[wolflance]

On 6/1/2017 at 3:09 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

For the cavalry champion, I was thinking a heavy lancer that can do the same thing, switch to bow and then back to lance. I do this kind of thing in DE, successfully, with the Mauryan Maiden Archer. This would be the Qin Men Guard Cavalry?

Also, maybe the tall feather things on their backs can go on the Imperial Guard Cavalry, Qin Men?

 

If weapon switching is possible, multi-role units will indeed fit the Chinese Champion quite nicely. There were numerous "guard" units during Han period, although Qi Men, Yu Lin and Hu Ben are some of the more famous ones.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

16 hours ago, wolflance said:

If weapon switching is possible, multi-role units will indeed fit the Chinese Champion quite nicely. There were numerous "guard" units during Han period, although Qi Men, Yu Lin and Hu Ben are some of the more famous ones.

Can you give some background for each one? Time period. Who formed them. How they were used.