Lord of the Rings

[Ruudy]

Hello! My name is Igor and I am the leader of the TheOneGame team. Recently I was lucky to come across your game in the Internet. I am simply struck! Everything is looking awesome!

I and my team were engaged in creation huge mod for the game The Battle for Middle-Earth 2. But now, we wanted something new, something with better graphic and better gameplay. Therefore we decided to address to you to you for council and the help =)

At first, I want to tell a little about our future project.

Our team plans to make new game about the world created by the J.R.R. Tolkien. For this, we need really good game engine. And we think, that your game engine suitable for our project.

Make a lot of unique factions is really difficult. So we decided for a start to make only 2 factions: Mordor and Gondor. Each faction will have 6-8 heroes, 10-12 units, unique magic and tactics. Gameplay will be like in The Battle for Middle-Earth 2, but with a lot of changes.

Everything is done to start a project. But at first we want to ask your some questions =)

1) can we count on your support in technical questions?

2) is it real to make a game on you engine with gameplay like in bfme 1\2?

Finally, let me sow you some our works:

PS:Sorry for my English =)

[zoot]

Are you aware of the legal issues related to using Tolkien-related content? There was another mod that was discontinued in part because of this: http://wildfiregames.com/tla/about.html

[Yves]

Hi and welcome!

The models and also the textures look nice!

There's another team creating a mod for 0 A.D. and they got a lot of technical help. I'm sure your questions will be answered too.

Here are some of their first questions, so you might find some answers there too.

As zoot said there are some concerns that there could be problems with intellectual property when creating a game in the Tolkien universe. I've heard that they are very strict in that matter and send you hordes of orcs ... I mean lawyers.

[Wijitmaker]

2) is it real to make a game on you engine with gameplay like in bfme 1\2?

I'm a big BFME fan and LOTR fan

WFG used to have a division of sorts working on a LOTR game based on the same game engine that 0 A.D. now uses. Lack of participants and fears of lawyers eventually stopped the development. Remnants are found here: http://www.wildfiregames.com/tla/

What elements of BFME's gameplay are you interesting in preserving? Things that you'll notice off the bat that 0 A.D. doesn't have is... a strategic map view, groups of units (we have formations, but unit behavior is more individual based in 0 A.D.), units walking on walls, and power points. Additionally, I don't believe that experience and stamina have yet been re-implemented since the engine rewrite years ago.

Your artwork looks great, I think you would find the game engine fairly easy to mod for artwork.

[Boruin]

Yes, we are familiar with Ilves, and we know the dangers of closing our project, but we still want to do it because we love what we do.

We have similar views on the system of construction with Ilves, and we have already agreed to support each other in this matter. We want to make the system of construction is very similar to the bfme1, but for the moment the fact that there is in the game, do not allow this, the game is open source, so we do (in theory) be able to implement it, but at the moment our team is not present person is able to do so. But we do not want to ask you to do this, we want to do it yourself. Although most likely your help will be very important for us.

1. Choice of race before the game. Currently cards have certain conditions to begin with, and on the maps already factions. I know in theory how to make a choice of races, but technically ... I'm still not familiar with this engine.

2. That selection factions before the start of the game will give an impetus to the development of the system construction, as the data points in the game is very related.

And of course the aspects of the game such as:

experience units, power points and many other we also want to keep

oh, Sorry for my very bad english.

[Yves]

... we know the dangers of closing our project, but we still want to do it because we love what we do.

I hope this won't happen and wish you the best!

We want to make the system of construction is very similar to the bfme1

I liked that. It's one of the things that made this game different than other games.

1. Choice of race before the game. Currently cards have certain conditions to begin with, and on the maps already factions. I know in theory how to make a choice of races, but technically ... I'm still not familiar with this engine.

2. That selection factions before the start of the game will give an impetus to the development of the system construction, as the data points in the game is very related.

I'm not sure if I understand correctly, but we also plan to have an additional mode to scenarios and random maps with a map created by hand but configurable sports where the players can select their starting location and things like their civilization just like in random maps.

[Boruin]

[Yves]

That's what I mean.

If you set "Match Type" to random you can select the faction/civilization.

And as I said we also plan to add another match type where you can set the civilization for scenario maps and the location where the players start on the map.

[Boruin]

Realization choice of faction gives an opportunity to reflect on the system of construction. So imagine for a second that the building - the flag, the usual flag.

And if the menu is selected fraction of Gondor, instead of a flag appears Tower of Gondor. And your wonderful system objects props allows us to implement system upgrades walls without additional files as it was in bfme. But as far as I understood now no upgrades system in the game (I could be wrong)

That's what I mean.

If you set "Match Type" to random you can select the faction/civilization.

And as I said we also plan to add another match type where you can set the civilization for scenario maps and the location where the players start on the map.

Yes, I understand. But we plan to do this for all the maps, without exception

Edited May 2, 2013 by Boruin

[WhiteTreePaladin]

We do have basic upgrade support. The basic units get automatically promoted to advanced and later elite ranks based on battle experience. There currently is a white bar displayed over the unit icon to show progress towards the next rank. As for technologies: they are available also, but once researched automatically apply to all of your existing units and all future units you train. With some significant effort, the system could probably be modified to handle per battalion upgrades like BFME.

[quantumstate]

Yes, I understand. But we plan to do this for all the maps, without exception

This is planned, I think the term skirmishes has been used. It requires some support in the editor, so you would place a special entity which gets replaces by the correct civ's starting units/buildings when the game is created.

[FeXoR]

This is planned, I think the term skirmishes has been used. It requires some support in the editor, so you would place a special entity which gets replaces by the correct civ's starting units/buildings when the game is created.

This also happens to be related to a recent post of mine: http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=16887&st=80#entry268738

...because random maps and scenarios happen to be initiated differently. So I think it would be good to grab this issue by it's roots.

[zoot]

Skirmish maps will not rely on triggers in any way. They will likely just be a variant of scenarios.

[FeXoR]

Skirmish maps will not rely on triggers in any way. They will likely just be a variant of scenarios.

True.

But I don't think it's a good idea to have 3 ways to initialize a map.

A rough concept (nothing more than the order of things) I have in mind would be:

1.) Generating abstract map data structure: This would include the terrain and placements of entities (if any). If it's a random map just an empty map is generatet fitting the settings in the RMS .json file. If it's a scenario it will be (more or less) entirely loaded after this stage. For skirmish maps just some entities has to be replaced later.

2.) Map manipulation: If it's a random map script some manipulations are made to generate the map. For a skirmish map the "placeholder" entities of the start positions are replaced with the appropriate entities. (When we have triggers implemented they could be add here for custom scenarios etc.).

3.) Loading the map: Now that all map data are present actually load the needed entity templates and the terrain art etc. and initialize the game.

That way we only have one way to load maps. Additionally all the RMGEN stuff could (not need) to be done with triggers (as far as all needed functions work with the abstract representation of the map and don't need the art etc. loaded. Entity templates might be needed earlier on though e.g. for obstruction/terrain analysis for AI and stuff, not sure here).

If all map types are initialized the same way it would need to be linked in a similar way so it also might get easier/more urgent to make shared libraries like mentioned here: http://www.wildfireg...showtopic=17052

Edited May 7, 2013 by FeXoR

[zoot]

Right, that would probably make sense.

[wackyserious]

On 5/2/2013 at 10:09 PM, Wijitmaker said:

WFG used to have a division of sorts working on a LOTR game based on the same game engine that 0 A.D. now uses. Lack of participants and fears of lawyers eventually stopped the development. Remnants are found here: http://www.wildfiregames.com/tla/

I'm sorry for necro-ing this topic, I have questions, I'm curious of what would likely get us sued if we create contents based on the Tolkien Universe.

I'm pretty sure that using copyrighted visual materials, like those that were in the movies is one.. But, is it safe or legal for us to use characters, places, names or things from the book?

Like for example, if I name the faction Isengard and name units like Uruk-hai (Is it okay? or will it get me into trouble?)

(I do have a Mordor faction WIP right now that uses the 0AD persian buidling set (with edited texture) as structures, so I'm sure it has no troubles visual materials-wise)

Edited February 8, 2016 by wackyserious

[fabio]

I think Tolkien stuff is still copyrighted. Conan Doyle books are just out of copyright these years (copyright looks a bit complex, but it should expire about 70 years after author death), and Sherlock Holmes can be freely used.

So I think you cannot legally use Tolkien specific places, names and so on. But I think you can freely replace some names with generic ones, e.g. rather than Uruk-hai just use Orc. Looks for example Wesnoth game, it uses Tolkien-like factions, but with different names.

This is just my interpretations, don't take it for sure :).

[fabio]

This Wikipedia page may be of help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries%27_copyright_lengths

(sorry for another post, but editing doesn't work on my tablet)

[wackyserious]

Just the right information that I need, thanks, it kinda enlightened me about the book copyright

[Palaiogos]

7 hours ago, fabio said:

I think Tolkien stuff is still copyrighted. Conan Doyle books are just out of copyright these years (copyright looks a bit complex, but it should expire about 70 years after author death), and Sherlock Holmes can be freely used.

So I think you cannot legally use Tolkien specific places, names and so on. But I think you can freely replace some names with generic ones, e.g. rather than Uruk-hai just use Orc. Looks for example Wesnoth game, it uses Tolkien-like factions, but with different names.

This is just my interpretations, don't take it for sure :).

Then how come Third Age Total War could use them? Also look at the Divide and Conquer Submod. Why don't they get sued?

[Loki1950]

They may have paid for the rights that is the usual practice but you would need access to their accounts to be sure but a check of the doc's for those versions should show a copyright notice if not the lawyers are on it with lots paper filed and mailed the company does not have to disclose that they are being accused of copyright infringement till it goes to the courts.

Enjoy the Choice  

[feneur]

And also, just because someone else might be getting away with something doesn't mean that it should/could be done  The rights holders might not be aware of those projects for that matter, so taking them as examples is probably not a good idea anyway.

[oshron]

i think that technically copyright only really becomes a legal issue if someone besides the rightful owner is profiting from it. you actually see this all the time in media--in trope terms, it's called Lawyer Friendly Cameo, Captain Ersatz, and/or Expy where a character, country, etc. is clearly intended to be a pre-existing character but can't be them for legal reasons. you see this pretty frequently in comics and animation, and can be as much an homage as it is simply getting around lawyers--examples of all three come up in Alan Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, which is a full-on crossover of fiction, particularly public domain characters (the original line-up of main characters were Mina Murray from Dracula, Alan Quatermain from King Solomon's Mines, Captain Nemo, Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde, and the Invisible Man), and included some expys (new characters based on older/contemporary ones) of historical figures using fictional characters (such as Oliver Haddo, who's used as a stand-in for Aleister Crowley) and some fictional characters that Moore didn't have the rights to use so they're referred to by aliases, such as Fu Manchu in the first volume who is referred to only as "the devil doctor" and the like

 

in theory, there should be no legal problems with a non-profit RTS game based on Tolkien's legendarium, just like (as i understand it) there's no legal problems with fanfiction as long as it isn't published (which interestingly HAS come up with an actual LOTR fanfic called The Last Ringbearer, published only in its original Russian because it'd be against copyright to publish it anywhere else) but i completely understand any reservations that WFG has against going forward with The Last Alliance--i myself am working on several writing projects which pay heavy homage to alot of media that i like and even if i don't end up publishing some of them i'm still being careful with exactly how i go about them

[sanderd17]

Copyright is independent from profit. There are some exceptions on copyright that allow usage for educational purposes or private purposes (sharing only with a small, hand-picked number of people). But there are no exceptions mentioning non-profit.

Of course, the punishments in copyright violations are usually calculated based on the loss caused to the copyright owner, and in stuff sold for profit, the punishment is often higher. But that doesn't mean that non-profit organisations never have to pay.

Then the US also has an exception called "fair use", which should allow most forms of fan-fiction. But this exception is unknown in Europe.

 

[oshron]

i forget, which country is Wildfire Games based in? in that case, that would determine what the status of a hypothetical LOTR mod is (similarly, iirc Wikipedia is obviously a very international site but is subject to Floridian law because that's where its servers are)