Default unit behavior: capture or destroy?

[Gurken Khan]

From A26 to A27 RC1 the default behavior of units was changed from capture to destroy; which do you prefer?

 

[alre]

is the poll frozen somehow? my vote would be on capture, as it's basically always the best choice. 

[Gurken Khan]

2 hours ago, alre said:

is the poll frozen somehow?

Did you try to vote just before posting? If so the poll seems indeed frozen, because those are the same numbers I saw yesterday. Don't know what I can do about it.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I voted too. Is it stuck at 10 votes total? 

[Gurken Khan]

3 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Is it stuck at 10 votes total? 

Yes; I only wanted the opinion of the first ten people.

No, of course not. I don't know what the problem is. I think it registered one vote more than yesterday. Maybe Invision takes some hours now to update the results? I'll look again later to see if there's a change. Do we currently have someone who is handling the websity side of this site?

[vladislavbelov]

15 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

Do we currently have someone who is handling the websity side of this site?

Currently only implodedok can handle it.

16 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

I think it registered one vote more than yesterday.

Usually the site doesn't have problems with polls (also I don't see "unregistered" votes).

[Gurken Khan]

51 minutes ago, vladislavbelov said:

Currently only implodedok can handle it.

Ok. So I ping @implodedok and see if anything comes out of it.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Gurken Khan said:

Yes; I only wanted the opinion of the first ten people.

And you wonder why.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

I can get used to manually choosing whichever mode no matter what the default is. The only case where I think it matters is for capturing low value things like houses. If you are attacking someone and if for whatever reason your best way to damage them is capturing and deleting buildings, then capture is the better default as multiple buildings can be captured in parallel.

[vladislavbelov]

5 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I can get used to manually choosing whichever mode no matter what the default is.

Maybe we can just make an option so everyone can choose the most attractive one.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I was under the impression we wanted to reduce the capture-delete mechanic.

[alre]

2 hours ago, vladislavbelov said:

Maybe we can just make an option so everyone can choose the most attractive one.

making an option is very good, but I wouldn't want that an option is introduced as an excuse for having a default that is actually inconvenient and thus bad for new players.

19 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I was under the impression we wanted to reduce the capture-delete mechanic.

changing preferred attack doesn't affect balance issues. capture-delete would still be there.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

12 minutes ago, alre said:

changing preferred attack doesn't affect balance issues. capture-delete would still be there.

What UnitAI does by default has a huge effect on the game meta, else this poll would not exist.

14 minutes ago, alre said:

making an option is very good, but I wouldn't want that an option is introduced as an excuse for having a default that is actually inconvenient and thus bad for new players.

Another motivation for changing it was that the capture mechanic is confusing for new players.

[alre]

59 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

What UnitAI does by default has a huge effect on the game meta, else this poll would not exist.

actually, no, this poll was created by a single-player guy, and the meta wouldn't change by the slightest, not at >1200 level. this reminds me about when formations were enabled by default: the meta didn't change at all, but you could then tell a newbe miles ahead.

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Another motivation for changing it was that the capture mechanic is confusing for new players.

it takes a minute to understand capture honestly. I don't like capture at all, but it's not complicated, and its quircks are not going away if it's just not the default anymore.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

I view it more as a quality of life change. If enough people were against the capture/delete as a valid way to destroy buildings in 0ad, then perhaps some economic incentive for a slow "deconstruction" would be a good move. In my opinion such a change would have more cons than pros depending on how its implemented.

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I just ain't got time to convince someone that default unitAI behaviors greatly affect gameplay.

[Gurken Khan]

6 hours ago, alre said:

this poll was created by a single-player guy

6 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I view it more as a quality of life change.

Personally the change feels like less quality of life as it needs more clicks without adding anything for me.

[alre]

6 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I just ain't got time to convince someone that default unitAI behaviors greatly affect gameplay.

lol it doesn't at my level. I amost never leave my units free to attack buildings at all. I would know. 

[chrstgtr]

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4676

It was done because of a dislike for for the capturing mechanic. There's a lot of legitimate gripe with that meta. This change attempts to thread the needle a bit. To say the least, the other competing proposals were much more complicated.

I think there is no real harm in trying out the change in default unit AI behavior--you'll probably get used to it pretty quickly and adjust accordingly

[Gurken Khan]

@chrstgtr Thx for the background.

As others wrote before I as well don't think it'll change the meta.

1 hour ago, chrstgtr said:

I think there is no real harm in trying out the change in default unit AI behavior--you'll probably get used to it pretty quickly and adjust accordingly

I played plenty of games in a27rc1 and ofc I adjusted. And still think it sucks.

Spoiler

I like to capture infrastructure (towers, stables...) and of course ~lastly and most importantly the CC; for each target that's extra clicks. When the different parts of my troops swing in on the CC I have to tell each to capture. The pedestrians take a direct approach, the champ cav might have to get something on the fringe first, the CS cav has to intercept enemies that want to garrison & then get the stable(s), incoming reinforcements have the CC as rally point, so I have to catch them & tell them to capture...

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

On 25/10/2023 at 3:20 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I was under the impression we wanted to reduce the capture-delete mechanic.

What we need to do is to make the capture system a little more complex depending on the building, the situation, the territory and the enemy.

 

Anything that is defensive should be captured only if it is damaged.

The houses should generate recovery bonds if they are together as if it were some kind of neighborhood.

And this has to more or less always be working with the buildings' damage system, the HP or Damage Points.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

What we need to do is to make the capture system a little more complex depending on the building, the situation, the territory and the enemy.

 

Anything that is defensive should be captured only if it is damaged.

The houses should generate recovery bonds if they are together as if it were some kind of neighborhood.

And this has to more or less always be working with the buildings' damage system, the HP or Damage Points.

There are commercial buildings, civic buildings, military buildings and defensive buildings.

In theory everything should have different mechanics and therefore different psychology.

Although in the end the most interesting mechanics are the same but in different damage conditions and different war situations.

[LienRag]

On 25/01/2024 at 9:45 AM, Lion.Kanzen said:

Anything that is defensive should be captured only if it is damaged.

Or understaffed.

Quick raids against an unprepared enemy are fun and strategic.