Genava55

Millennium A.D.?

Origin of the Coolus-Mannheim? Here a native Southern Gallic helmet, type Toulouse-Estarac in iron - 100/70 BC :

Helmet type Alésia - 1st century BC Helmet type Agen - 1st century BC Helmet type Forêt de Rouvray - 1st century BC Helmet variante of Forêt de Louviers - 1st century BC Helmet type Port - 1st century BC Helmet type Port variant of Mihovo: Helmet type Siemiechowa (Poland) - 1st century BC Helmet type Mihovo - 1st century BC Helmet type Boé - 1st century BC

Yeah my bad. Linguistic is not my specialty and modern Celtic languages are so complicated because of their divergent history. I'm more interested in ancient history, not medieval history. Edit: Here an interesting comparison between the celtic languages: https://www.academia.edu/6990656/Gallo-Brittonic_vs._Insular_Celtic_The_Inter-rela_tion_ships_of_the_Celtic_Languages_Recon_sidered

In theory yes. But in practice we don't have any proof... There are some burials with Celtic and Roman weapons mixed but they are from the post-Gallic Wars period and probably represent auxiliaries. The Coolus-Mannheim origin is unknown and specialist like Michel Feugère thinks it is a helmet from Roman tradition. We don't know if this helmet is used by both Celtic and Roman warriors as an usual helmet. The Coolus-Mannheim could really be an evolution of the previous Montefortino. My point of view is that I disagree with Feugère's position. Firstly because he is a "Roman Supremacist" and can be excessive on his positions. For example he said that the helmets type Port aren't from a Gallic tradition but from a Gallo-Roman tradition, criticizing the idea that Gallic helmets were the sources of inspiration for the imperial helmets. Gladly, new findings in Gergovia prove him wrong by showing the existence of the type Port during the Gallic Wars in native burials. In my opinion, the Coolus-Mannheim comes from Gallia Narbonensis and is a helmet used by the early Gallo-Roman auxiliaries. The basic design is clearly similar with the Late montefortino helmet and with its successor the Buggenum, both without paragnathids, but the absence of the top tip is probably from a local tradition (there is a celtic relief depicting a similar helmet but with paragnathids). Julius Caesar is the proconsul of Gallia Narbonensis and he got a lot of issues with Rome during his campaign. It should have been much easier for him to produce these helmets to supply his legionaries and his auxiliaries.

Actually we have no proofs of these borrowing. These helmets are pretty rare. Moreover, Kultofathena are making up their opinion from nothing since they even mess up with the helmet typology. It is not an Agen helmet (which look like a Alesia type) but a "Forêt de Rouvray" type.

Yeah I was thinking about this. A lot of people confuse Coolus C-E helmets with Celtic helmets. It is why I see often the same models both in iron and in bronze. It is not a problem for monterfortino helmets but for others it should be avoided (for example Berru helmets exist only in bronze). These ones? https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Civ%3A_Britons https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Civ%3A_Gauls

I got a question, what is this helmet in bronze or in iron with a back cap and a tip in the top?

Sure. To be simple, the actual names are based on different modern languages mostly Welsh, Breton and Irish Gaelic. The problem with these modern languages is that they didn't share the same history of the Gaulish language and have a lot of loan words from Latin and English. During the timeframe of the game there was two main groups and four sub-groups of Celtic languages known: *P-celtic languages with the sub-groups Continental Gaulish and Insular Britonish. *Q-Celtic or K-Celtic languages with the sub-groups Gaelic and Celtiberic languages. The two actual factions are based mainly on the Gauls and the Britons that both used P-Celtic languages. At this point of time, the Britonish and the Gaulish are very close and have a lot of similarities. It is why I used only Gaulish dictionaries for my suggestion. The Irish Gaelic are Q-Celtic languages with a long evolution and numerous loan words. For example Caer is probably a borrowing from the Latin Castrum. The Breton is a language from the Insular Britonish with Latin and Cornish influence that insular immigrants brought into France during the fifth century AD. After centuries of evolution during the Middle Age, the Breton have a very different pronunciation and writing of the words. For example, Annedd is an evolution of the Gaulish word Andoedo/Andosedon. The same for Welsh that emerges only around the third century AD. In my proposal, I choose Tegia for the house because it is a well known word in Gaulish with an old indo-european root (-Teg) which has given the Stégos in Greek (house, roof). For the Corral, I choose Cagion because it is used for "a field closed by a fence" with an old indo-european root (-kagh) which has given Caulae in Latin and Hag in German (fence). Olca is suspected to come from an old root (-polka) which has given several words to designate a land suited for farming in Germanic languages and Medieval latin languages. Lissos is known from several toponyms and the root has survived in old irish (Less) and Breton (Les) to designate a palace and a royal residence. Tigernotreba is a personal reconstruction with the word Tigerno- very common in insular Britonish to designate a lord/seigneur and the word -Treba designating a habitation (either a house or a hamlet). Coriosedlon is a personal reconstruction with Corios (army) and Sedlon (seat) in Gaulish and Sessa (seat) in Britonish, I took my inspiration from the latin -sedeo used in Praesidium to designate a military place. Brauon is a mill in Gaulish. Gobanio- is a root associated with different word about the blacksmith and the forge. Capanon comes from a word in Gallo-Latin (capanna) which is suspected to be the ancestor of the word Cabane in French. Buta is a gaulish word associated with the idea of a habitation but with several successors in old french dialects that has given toponym associated with stable, barn and pigsty. Magos and Dunon are very well known word about market and fortress. Uxelon is a personal reconstruction for the name tower from the toponym Uxella meaning high fort or high place, the root Uxel- is associated with the idea of physical highness. Rate means wall in all Celtic languages. Duoricos is a portique with the root Dur- associated in all Celtic and Germanic languages with the idea of gate. Nemeton is a known word from latin litterature for sanctuaries among the Celts. Counos is a proposal for the port from the greco-celtic "Kóounnos nêsos", the toponym Cunis and the Old irish Cúan. Celicnon is a word proposed for a feast or a religious building (huge linguistic debate behind this word). Cantalon is a circular monument (root cant- for the circle) in a religious Gallo-roman inscription found in France. Finally my personal construction Remogantion and Comardrigantion both using the word Gantio- for the assembly. Remo- is the "first" like in the latin "Princeps", designating a noble class. Comardrig- is constituated of Com- (comrade) and of Ardrig (High-king, like in Irish mythology). Literally the assembly of the comrades of the high king.

It took me a while, but I did a review of the possible labeling for the buildings. After a lot of hesitation and reading about which name is the best and personal reconstruction (I did my best) here my proposition: Gauls buildings: Building Actual name New name House Annedd Tegia Corral Cavalidos Cagion Farm Varmo Olca Civic-center Caer Lissos Barracks Gwersyllty Coriosedlon Rotary Mill Melonas Brauon Storehouse Ystordy Capanon Farmstead Ffermdy Buta Blacksmith Amoridas Gobanion Market Marchnaty Magos Fortress Dun Dunon Tower Tyrau Uxelon Wall Gwarchglawdd Rate Gate Duro Duoricos Temple Addoldy Nemeton Port Crannoc Counos New buildings Feast-center Celicnon Hemicycle Remogantion Monument Mediolanon Bretons buildings: Building Actual name New name House Annedd Tegia Corral Cavalidos Cagion Farm Varmo Olca Civic-center Caer Tigernotreba Barracks Gwersyllty Coriosessa Rotary Mill Melonas Brauon Storehouse Ystordy Capanon Farmstead Ffermdy Buta Blacksmith Amoridas Gobanion Market Marchnaty Magos Fortress Dun Dunon Tower Tyrau Uxelon Wall Gwarchglawdd Rate Gate Duro Duoricos Temple Addoldy Nemeton Port Crannoc Counos New buildings Irish-royal site Comardrigantion Monument Cantalon

I checked the buildings from the Celtic factions and in general there is no big trouble. The only thing is the overwhelming occurrence of round shields and britonic shields on gallic buildings. It should be nice to replace them by oval shields which are the emblematic shield in the gallic art. Maybe some farming tools and others common items could be interesting to enhance the buildings. The forge/blacksmith have a fire and a chimney that are not really accurate historically but it is maybe excessive to change them. If you are motivated here some pictures: Outside the temple and the tavern that should be changed, I think the Civic-Center (actually labelled Caer) could be improved. I have the feeling that this building look too much like a market or a shop. I suggest to keep the main structure, to remove the foods, the showcases and the displays. I suggest to color a part of the facade of the building with the color faction and to add some discrete patterns/motifs. I like the idea of the portique and we could add on each side of the main door two wooden statues against the wall.

Canosa helmet, fourth century BC: Helmet of Amfreville (Casque d'Amfreville), fourth century BC: Helmet of Tronoën / Helmet of St-Jean Trolimon (iron helmet with bronze decorations): Helmet of Agris (Casque d'Agris): 3D model https://sketchfab.com/models/c791886dc48c4a47be16616a77eef198 Possible reconstruction of the broken and missing pieces:

Type Montefortino helmets, fourth and third century BC: Variante Kastelruth, second century BC:

Bronze and engraved helmet from the necropolis of Montefortino, fourth century BC: Iron helmet of Monte Bibele with bronze decorations, fourth century BC:

Helmets type Berru - All in bronze - 4th century BC

Rathcroghan, Royal irish iron age site. https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/researching-rathcroghan-the-tara-of-the-west-1.2828490 https://youtu.be/K7iTshfqG1c Bloodgate Hill, british Iron Age Fort http://www.norfarchtrust.org.uk/bloodgate

Oh thx. It is from the authors Vincent Pompetti and Tarek. I like their art. The only things is their tendency to put everything they found in their comics. Montefortino helmet during the gallic wars for example... The first one comes from the comics Alix and is not very accurate since there is almost no archaelogical records of Lutecia on the island before the Romans. The author is not good with accuracy: The second one is the fortress of Paule, during the 1st century BC.

Maybe, but it misses clearly several points and misinterprets the basic function.

Not really, Celtic sanctuaries have the same basic architecture of a "fanum" (which was discovered as their gallo-roman successor): Yes I understand that it is maybe too much gore. The weapons trophy is softer. But anyway I want to verify in the literature something about the Titelberg sanctuary. Maybe there is a good candidate there. It seems to have been a more massive structure but there is no details outside of books (no articles are very descriptive about it). There is only one artistic depiction but I'm not sure of its rigorousness and accuracy:

Corent is not totally unique. There is a similar one in Tintignac (see below), it is mainly a question of time period and regional specificity. Gournay and Ribemont are from the 3rd century, Tintignac and Corent from the 1st century BC. Gournay and Ribemont are from a period without strong urbanization, contrary to the others. For the Celts it should have been important https://www.researchgate.net/publication/302531542_Lieux_de_Memoire_Central_Places_and_the_Sanctuary_of_Ribemont-sur-Ancre_A_Preliminary_Look?_sg=NhY95Jc0CjkOCKa1kEraSUTYkxcgQrJrrWQugBL902EbtZi8zMiJLoPeScySHCJZtq6355AAxg Re-enactment by the association Les Ambiani Edit: irish equivalent, @Sundiata http://www.miotas.org/article.cfm?id=Emain_Macha

I'm glad if I can help you with this kind of trouble. Maybe you could start to the basics of what we known about: http://www.teuta-arverni.com/medias/files/aristocratie-arverne-au-temps-de-vercingetorix-m.poux-1-.pdf http://www.luern.fr/articles/matthieu_poux_OCT11.pdf  And it should be possible to change it a bit, to adapt it. If the problem is the canvas, we can maybe let the building uncovered. We can add a side building in front of the hemicycle with a roof in wooden planks (without any moldiness). It is probable that the Arverni took their inspiration from the Greek Bouleuterion, then there is some room for imagination and adaptation. We don't need to reproduce EXACTLY the hemicycle of Corent, we need only to capture its essence to make something with it. What bothers me the most is the name and the idea behind. Making the tavern as a key building for the Celts is kinda a cliché about barbarians. Especially I don't see the link between "naked fanatics" and alcohol. Personally I am more about using the Corent sanctuary as the basic temple because it was a building with a regular use. If it is not what you want, we could use it as a feast building since there is clear evidences of feasting, wine reservoirs and animal sacrifice and eating in the building (the border between politics and religious is thin during ancient times). For the wonder, I'm thinking about taking inspiration from diverses sanctuaries. Gournay-sur-Aronde for the core basis and the hanging weapons, Ribemont-sur-Ancre for the bloody ossuary, Manching for the golden plant/tree and the wooden statues of Geneva and Yverdon-les-Bains. Yes the Dun Ailinne got two phases, the first one is the one from the picture I put in the document. The second phase is an unique circular enclosure with round building in the middle. I prefered the first phase because of the seats and the "arena" looking. Iron age Ireland is not exactly the same than in Britain but is clearly closer than the La Tène Gauls. And I didn't think it would cause trouble since the actual fortress for the Britons is based on a Iron age Scottish Broch. If someone want to make old monuments (bronze age) there is the woodhenge of Wiltshire and of Pömmelte. It could be possible to add some colours in key buildings since there is several archeological evidences about this: https://www.arar.mom.fr/sites/arar.mom.fr/files/docs/Publications/decorpreromain.pdf I can help with art, pattern and motifs.

Thank you and thank you for your comments. The Gaesatae is a complex discussion and I didn't delete them in my suggestion, I just renamed them in Bariogaisatos (Bario meaning furious). If we look at the latin name of Gaesatae, probably originally Gaisatoi (plural of Gaisatos), it is meaning "those who use the Gaisa" which is a obscur word with both translation in javelin and in spear. Video games and wargames started to use the name for "naked fanatics" but they are not described only by this characteristic: Polybius: 2.22: "Accordingly the two most extensive tribes, the Insubres and Boii, joined in the despatch of messengers to the tribes living about the Alps and on the Rhone, who from a word which means "serving for hire," are called Gaesatae. To their kings Concolitanus and Aneroetes they offered a large sum of gold on the spot; and, for the future, pointed out to them the greatness of the wealth of Rome, and all the riches of which they would become possessed, if they took it." There is a very less known account of the Gaesatae, where their king fought Marcellus with a beautiful armor/cuirass (in my opinion, a leather/lino cuirass): Plutarch: Life of Marcellus, 6: From thence Britomartus the king, taking with him ten thousand of the Gaesatae, ravaged the country about the Po. When Marcellus learned of this, he left his colleague at Acerrae with all the heavy-armed infantry and a third part of the cavalry, while he himself, taking with him the rest of the cavalry and the most lightly equipped men-at‑arms to the number of six hundred, marched, without halting in his course day or night, until he came upon the ten thousand Gaesatae near the place called Clastidium, a Gallic village which not long before had become subject to the Romans. There was no time for him to give his army rest and refreshment, for the Barbarians quickly learned of his arrival, and held in contempt the infantry with him, which were few in number all told, and, being Gauls, made no account of his cavalry. For they were most excellent fighters on horseback, and were thought to be specially superior as such, and, besides, at this time they far outnumbered Marcellus. Immediately, therefore, they charged upon him with great violence and dreadful threats, thinking to overwhelm him, their king riding in front of them. But Marcellus, that they might not succeed in enclosing and surrounding him and his few followers, led his troops of cavalry forward and tried to outflank them, extending his wing into a thin line, until he was not far from the enemy. And now, just as he was turning to make a charge, his horse, frightened by the ferocious aspect of the enemy, wheeled about and bore mostly forcibly back. But he, fearing lest this should be taken as a bad omen by the Romans and lead to confusion among them, quickly reined his horse round to the left and made him face the enemy, while he himself made adoration to the sun, implying that it was not by chance, but for this purpose, that he had wheeled about; for it is the custom with the Romans to turn round in this way when they make adoration to the gods. And in the moment of closing with the enemy he is said to have vowed that he would consecrate to Jupiter Feretrius the most beautiful suit of armour among them. Meanwhile the king of the Gauls espied him, and judging from his insignia that he was the commander, rode far out in front of the rest and confronted him, shouting challenges and brandishing his spear. His stature exceeded that of the other Gauls, and he was conspicuous for a suit of armour which was set off with gold and silver and bright colours and all sorts of broideries; it gleamed like lightning. Accordingly, as Marcellus surveyed the ranks of the enemy, this seemed to him to be the most beautiful armour, and he concluded that it was this which he had vowed to the god. He therefore rushed upon the man, and by a thrust of his spear which pierced his adversary's breastplate, and by the impact of his horse in full career, threw him, still living, upon the ground, where, with a second and third blow, he promptly killed him. Then leaping from his horse and laying his hands upon the armour of the dead, he looked towards heaven and said: "O Jupiter Feretrius, who beholdest the great deeds and exploits of generals and commanders in wars and fightings, I call thee to witness that I have overpowered and slain this man with my own hand, being the third Roman ruler and general so to slay a ruler and king, and that I dedicate to thee the first and most beautiful of the spoils. Do thou therefore grant us a like fortune as we prosecute the rest of the war." There is also another account of naked warriors without any relation with the Gaesatae. It is the Toligistobogioi (Galatians). Titus Livius (Livy), The History of Rome, Book 38, 21: Arrows, sling-bullets, darts, coming from all sides wounded them unexpectedly, nor did they see what to do, as their minds were blinded by rage and fear, and they were involved in a kind of battle for which they were very ill-adapted. For, as in hand-to-hand fighting, where they can receive and inflict wounds in turn, passion inflames their minds, so when they are struck by light weapons, coming from unseen and distant sources, and when they have no place at which they can charge with blind violence, like wounded animals they rush headlong upon their own friends. The fact that they fight naked makes their wounds conspicuous and their bodies are fleshy and white, as is natural, since they are never uncovered except in battle; so that both more blood flowed from their abundant flesh and the wounds stood out to view more fearfully and the whiteness of their skins was more stained by the black blood. But they are not much disturbed by open wounds; indeed, sometimes they cut away the skin, when the gash is broad rather than deep, and think that thus they gain greater glory in the fight; the same men, when the sting of an arrow or of a bullet that has buried itself in the flesh torments them, having caused a wound small to look at, and, as they search for a way to extract the missile, it does not come out, turning to madness and shame at being destroyed by so small a thing, throw their bodies upon the ground. So in this instance they lay prostrate here and there; some, rushing against the enemy, were wounded from every side, and when they had come to close quarters they were slain by the swords of the skirmishers. It is why I propose a new term, less related to the Gaesatae, for naked warriors. Nudity in combat should have been for a very specific reason (religious?) since there is only a few accounts and almost none native depictions of this practice. I only retransformed the latin or greek name in gaulish. Vercingetorix => Uercingetorix, Arverni => Arouernoi/Aruernoi, Treveri => Treoueroi. For the rest, I used my Gaulish dictionary or take inspiration from Europa Barbarorum II (which have used both celtic and proto-IE roots). Yes, I found it not really shocking like this:

Hi guys, I have some suggestions to differentiate the Britons and the Gauls, not only aesthetically but also in the military units and buildings. Here a picture oriented overview, feel free to comment or ask any question: http://docdro.id/YYcHXh2 @Sundiata @Lion.Kanzen @wowgetoffyourcellphone @wackyserious

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