Genava55

I am not suggesting you should do all the factions, this is simply to remind the bigger picture. The issue of the Thracians was mainly the building design and the lack of both accuracy and cultural reference to the Thracian culture. I think it is better to keep a design entirely based on wood for the Dacians because there are less alternatives in their case. But as you are proposing to do two different sets, distinguishing the Thracians and Odrysians, and as nobody is complaining (silence means consent), I see my position as the minority and I will no longer express my position.

That's a Labrys. Labrys is a ceremonial axe. No doubt that Persians used axes but for the Thracians the question remains. This kind of shape for axe-heads is better suited for tools. You can find axe-heads everywhere, it doesn't mean it is a weapon all the time (obviously). The article from where the figure comes doesn't tell if those are weapons. Those are clearly medieval shapes. Probably Varangian. The Sagaris is a Scythian axe. It is plausible, we do find some in the North among the Getae but that's not something common for the Thracian infantrymen. Here what the book "A Companion to Ancient Thrace" (p.429) tells on the matter: Hasta la fecha sólo hay dos hachas de batalla de segura procedencia tracia, una de Sboryanovo, la otra de la rica tumba en el montículo III cerca de Kralevo. La fecha de ambos contextos es la primera mitad del siglo III (Stoyanov y otros 2006, 44-45, fig. 65). El inventario de la tumba de Kralevo sugiere que estas hachas fueron utilizadas por jinetes. Hachas similares, conocidas en el Cáucaso y en Escitia ya en el siglo IV, son armas típicas de la caballería del reino del Bósforo cimeriano del siglo IV y se representaron en artefactos del norte del Mar Negro (Melyukova 1964, 65-68, pl. 21.10-16, 21). That's another word for the Labrys.

That's not really war waggons but yes they used waggons on the battlefield at one occasion.

This is why I made a synthesis on the 7th page of this thread based on a few academic books and articles. To simplify the research for the others. I don't see the point in making two Thracian civ based nearly on the same material. Especially if there are the Dacians and the Illyrians as other potential civs. Is there any evidence for battle-axe among the Thracians? Just curious, I am genuinely interested by the topic.

Sure not fully Hellenized. But still they have access to artillery, walls, fortresses with a proper Hellenic design. Their units use hellenic weapons as well. This is why I suggested making a design that could fit a few Hellenized buildings. All woods make the Hellenic buildings super-ugly. Stones or stone and wood could be a better design. And when I mean stones, I don't necessarily mean Hellenic super polished buildings with cutted stones.** The two capitals were Helis and Seuthopolis, just sayin'... Edit: to be clear, I wish it could represent both the common people and the elite. I think they have more native buildings (rock-cut monument and royal tombs notably) based on stones. ** example from my country

Maybe it could work better for the Dacians, are you thinking about a design based on wooden planks, wooden beams and wooden tiles? Isn't it a problem for the heroes and the units? To miss the Hellenized counterparts of the Thracians?

Your welcome and thank you for taking the time for it. I think the biggest issue is finding a proper style and design for the buildings. Since the Thracians of the Odrysian kingdom were heavily Hellenized, I don't think a wooden design is suitable. Maybe something with more stones, even for the houses.

http://groznijat.tripod.com/thrac/index.html https://tied.verbix.com/project/glossary/thra.html https://www.academia.edu/25248385/Studies_in_Thracian_vocabulary_I_VII_ https://sci-hub.st/downloads/2020-01-07/41/sotiroff1963.pdf#view=FitH zibythides for nobles, suras for warrior etc.

Developing the Odrysians would be really nice. This a lesser known civ with very interesting units.

Obviously the iconic Scythians should be really appealing. It is just more difficult to render a nomadic culture in the game (because historical accuracy). But I think Han China is in the most advanced state currently for an upcoming faction. So... yeah maybe there is the time to include it for A24.

The issue with radiocarbon dating are the plateaux and the period of interest here clearly falls in one of the worst plateau ever known. The variability is clearly visible in the table for the calibration, they analyzed each sample three times (this is what we usually do in geochemistry). However, from the two samples 4017 and 4052, even by accounting the variability they could be confident for a second half of the 7th century BC at least. Edit: An interesting intro on the topic of iron ore in Meroe: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/0067270X.2018.1515922 Well, bones javelins are common in Danemark and in the British Isles during the iron age, so why not. Arrows are projectiles, consumables.

The article says: The references are: [20] R. Haaland, Iron production, its socio-cultural context andecological implications, in: R. Haaland, P. Shinnie (Eds.), African Iron Working, Norwegian University Press, Oslo, 1985, pp. 50–72 [39] P. Shinnie, Iron working at Meroe, in: R. Haaland, P. Shinnie (Eds.), African Iron Working, Norwegian University Press, Oslo, 1985, pp. 28–35. [55] R.F. Tylecote, Metal working at Meroe, Sudan, in: N.B. Millet,A.L. Kelly (Eds.), Meroitica, Proceedings of the Third Inter-national Meroitic Conference, Toronto, 1977, Akademic Verlag,Berlin, 1982, pp. 29–49 [59] N.J. van der Merwe, The advent of iron in Africa, in: T.A.Wertime, J.D. Muhly (Eds.), The Coming of the Age of Iron,Yale University Press, New Haven, 1980, pp. 463–506. [66] D. Williams, African iron in the classical world, in: L.A.Thompson, J. Ferguson (Eds.), African Classical Antiquity; Nine Studies, Ibadan University Press, Ibadan, 1969. So even according to these outdated references, the earliest iron objects known for the Kushites are from the early 4th century BC.

Gallic knife, 1st c. BC, Tavant Gallic knife from Bucy-le-Long, 5th or 4th c. BC

So there are evidences for spearmen, swordsmen, javelineers, light cavalry, heavy cavalry, slingers. The most common symbol for the Lusitanians is the lunula: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusitanians#/media/File:Lúnula_lusitana_de_Chão_de_Lamas_(M.A.N._28589)_01.jpg

@Lopess @Duileoga Sadly I don't have the time to give advices on a new mini-faction, I just got a new job and I am really busy for the following months. Furthermore I am already helping Europa Barbarorum's team, which is time-consuming. In addition, Spanish is not my mother tongue and I am still learning it. Finally, I don't know enough the Iberian peninsula to rely on memory. So basically I could help mostly by relying on reading, for which I am not in the best position in this context. In the future, I can ask Trarco if he wants to participate here. I can simply remember you that the Iberian peninsula during the iron age is a quite diverse place. - There are non-indo-european cultures, three groups can be schematized: the Iberians, the Palaeo-Basques/Aquitanians, the Turdetani. The latter being heavily influenced by Punic civilization. - A growing Celtic presence, mostly driven by the Celtiberians. Their material culture is heavily spreading among the Vaccaei, the Vettones and the Gallaeci. - Another indo-european remaining presence, associated to the Lusitanians and probably also to the Gallaeci and the Vettones. Either it is an older Celtic culture from the Bronze Age, or a sister branch of the Celtic languages and cultures. They share heavy similarities with the Celts (notably with the worship of Epona, Endovelicus, Lugus) but their language suggests some important differences. The massive difference in the material culture is related to the culture of the castros or castreña: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultura_castreña https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castro_culture You can find a lot of resources on the FB page of Celtiberia I already gave above, but also here in English: https://dc.uwm.edu/ekeltoi/ There is an audio podcast at the end of this table of contents: https://www.despertaferro-ediciones.com/revistas/numero/arqueologia-historia-25-celtiberos/ There are a bunch of books you can find on library genesis: Los pueblos prerromanos de la península Ibérica Los celtiberos Prehistoria y protohistoria de la Península Ibérica There are some academic publication on the Western people of the peninsula: LAS COMUNIDADES DE LA EDAD DEL HIERRO EN EL OCCIDENTE DE LA MESETA “¿Guerreros o bandoleros? Las formas de combate de los pueblos de la Meseta Occidental a partir del armamento de los yacimientos abulenses (ss. V-I a.C.) Finding resources on the Vettones is quite easy: https://www.academia.edu/2981562/Nuestros_ancestros_los_vettones https://www.academia.edu/2053713/Los_Vettones_Arqueología_de_un_pueblo_protohistórico Edit: https://www.facebook.com/TANITdivulgacion/posts/1755140541304108 https://www.facebook.com/TANITdivulgacion

By the way, that the same for any civilization. Nobody uses a dagger to cut animal parts if they have access to a knife. Same for the Celts: http://www.arbre-celtique.com/etude/02-societe/sciences/outils3b.jpg

At least a knife not a dagger: https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/335940453439160489/ https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/335940453447051027/ https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/335940453446548736/

I am in favor of the inclusion of a Chinese faction (warring states or Han dynasty). I am simply expressing here my support in case someone is interested. Xiaolian: It is the concept of filial piety and incorruptibility introduced by Emperor Wudi (Han dynasty) and Dong Zhongshu for the election of high officials.

Celtic women, did they fight? English subtitles available:

They have been replaced in Europa Barbarorum II (I see you took your inspiration from EB1), now the Parthians and the Seleucids have access to: Payadag i Kardakan / Persian Heavy Spearmen These men have been trained and carry uniform equipment, making them more reliable than other eastern infantrymen. Equipped with thureos shields and spears, they provide a strong infantry line, which levied men would not be able to hold against organised opposition. Historically the Hakhamanishiya had always promoted a common education, in theory open to everyone, but only the nobility could truly afford it. All of this resulted in a comprehensive system, which provided future officials and administrators, but was also integral to the preparation for military life. Split in companies of 50 youths, led generally by the noblest of them, they followed a daily routine of exercises and studies. Specifically they were trained to increase their endurance through proper breathing techniques, but also how to resist the cold, heat and rains, to cross streams while keeping their clothing and armour dry, to tend to flocks and how to live outdoors all night, eating wild fruits like pistachios, acorns and pears. Moreover these youths ate and hunted together, while after their exercises they were instructed in the planting of trees, cutting and gathering of wood or roots and the making of weapons, hunting nets and linen clothing. All of this signified a rite of passage, because during this period the youths proved that they could be admitted to the adult part of society. Even ancient authors noted the similarities to the Spartan Agoge and especially the Krypteia, however Strabon recorded how these youths were known as Kardaka, because Karda according to him meant manly and warlike spirit. This root word however, actually described those wandering or travelling, denoting the behaviours these youths had to learn. With the shortage of Hellenic mercenaries in the late 4th century BC, the Satrapal administration extended part of this system to young men in their dependencies, in order to develop a larger pool of trained infantry. This very infrastructure later allowed Alexandros Megas to muster and train Asiatikoi in Hellenistic warfare and indeed the practice was kept alive by the Seleukidai, who improved the Kardaka even further by furnishing them thureos shields. Erin-mesh Uriki / Akkadian Elite Infantry These men are the closer order infantry of the Akkadian peoples of Mesopotamia. Many of them wear some armour, helmets and light thorakes, and all carry aspides to go with their long spears. The spears give them good length when defending city walls, fending off cavalry, running down light troops, or challenging sarissa-equipped phalanxes. The Erin-mesh Uriki are drawn from the citizen rolls of Akkadian cities, and were customarily employed as guardians of cities and temples and as emergency militia during wartime. Historically, the heyday of Akkadian arms was well past, although the monuments of Babylon, Uruk, and other places stand as testament to the Akkadians of the power their forefathers once held. The Akkadians were well-accustomed, for many years, to both pitched battle in close order formation and to skirmishes against lighter troops from the Arabian desert to the southwest and the highlands to the east. In the Persian Wars, the Akkadians were marshalled together with the Assyrians and Arameans, and even then carried concave round shields comparable to the aspis, lengthy spears, and variations of the machaira (Hdt. 7.63). Akkadians fought at Gaugamela as well under the satrap Mazaios, but soon after found themselves under Makedonian rule. Six thousand were trained by Macedonian instructors and joined Alexander's army in Bactria as pantodapoi, while others continued to serve, probably in traditional panoplies, in garrison duty roles. Babylonian tablets provide strong evidence that Akkadians continued to play limited, mainly regional military roles. Babylonian troops suffered heavy casualties against Ptolemaic phalangites in defence of their city in 245 BC due to their lighter equipment, but managed to hold a few key sectors of the city. Nezagdar / Iranian Spearmen These men represent the lower ranks of retainers to the Azads and nobles who come to the aid of the Shahanshah. They are not wealthy enough to possess their own horse, but are still able to possess enough equipment to fight as line infantry instead of as skirmishers. Armed with spear and reed shields, they can hold a line against lighter foes, but are not able to hold their own for long against more heavily armed opponents. Most of the men in this unit are dressed in everyday clothes, including cloth jackets, pants and leather boots or shoes. Many wear a Kyrbasia, a hat with flaps which can be tied under the chin, or around the back of the neck of the wearer. Often, the flaps could be used to cover the mouth and nose, useful when in arid conditions, where dust clouds from marching would otherwise make breathing hard. Others wear simple cloth caps. Some of them wear tube and yoke armour corselets, made from leather or hardened linen, sometimes with padding added for extra protection. Their reed shields would be made from long pieces of reed on a leather base, where the reeds were fastened by being pushed through holes made in the leather. In this manner, it was possible to render impressive geometric patterns without the need for any paint or other decoration. They carry spears equipped with a ball-shaped butt, which helps to balance the weapon while fighting. Historically, the armies of ancient Iran consisted of generally mounted noblemen, accompanied by their retinue, and levies from their lands. The more elite warriors were often funded by the nobleman himself: the rest were generally civilians who followed their local noble. Although the most prominent section of an Azad's retinue was the armoured cavalry, a larger portion was made up of less well trained and well equipped men. Those peasants and townsmen who could not afford a war horse, but were wealthy enough to purchase armour and weapons would serve as the line infantry. Men like these would have made up the majority of the armies faced by Alexandros, and still during the age of Parthian, and even Sassanian, hegemony, such men would be the mainstay of the infantry forces in Iranian armies.

Archeological news about Iron Age in France: https://www.inrap.fr/en/periods/iron-age Le guerrier gaulois de La Gorge-Meillet https://musee-archeologienationale.fr/le-guerrier-gaulois-de-la-gorge-meillet Le guerrier gaulois de La Gorge-Meillet retrouve son visage https://musee-archeologienationale.fr/le-guerrier-gaulois-de-la-gorge-meillet-retrouve-son-visage

It was more about the current situation with the Iberians mixing references from different cultures and peoples. Notably the Iberians have Viriathus as a hero. I suggested in the past either to make at least two different civs or to more clearly distinguish the other peoples in the Iberian roster and building tree. Edit: Different approaches to the problem