Sundiata
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Posts posted by Sundiata
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Ooooh, on the question of Indian turrets, I found something interesting...
There is a panel from Gandhara (Charg Pate, Indian subcontinent), depicting a war elephant with turret. These kind of panels are variously dated between the 1st century BC and the 3rd century AD. I can't tell the exact date for the panel presented here, but its content is quite relevant for us. It depicts Ashoka!
We can't say how far back this tradition of depicting turreted war elephants in association with Ashoka goes. Maybe it was an anachronistic one time thing, produced centuries after Ashoka, or maybe it was once a more common type of depiction with a historical tradition. Who knows? What we do know is that within a few centuries of Ashoka, we have art from the same region depicting Ashoka in association with a towered war elephant.
Same panel, different picture:
On the question of elephant stables, the following Gandhara panel is possibly of interest:
The elephant standing in the door opening on the left might be a purely symbolical depiction, or might actually represent, or be based on a credible scene of an elephant exiting its "stables". Again, who knows? But still interesting.
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35 minutes ago, Nescio said:
Most of the images you showed are actually travel chariots, not war chariots.
The first two reliefs each depict a chariot with an axeman carrying a huge battle axe and each of the chariots is further equipped with at least two spears. I can't easily make out weapons in the chariot depicted in the third relief, but it's accompanied by an infantry spearman. The following two chariot/carriages are just added to give more examples of such vehicles in Han China.
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42 minutes ago, Stan` said:
The reason it never really showed up is because I was told chariots were out of phase and as such should only be an eyecandy unit.
15 minutes ago, Nescio said:You mean historically?
Spoked-wheel war chariots spread throughout most of Eurasia during the Bronze Age (second millennium) and dominated the battlefields, and though declining in importance after the introduction of cavalry in the Iron Age (first millennium), they continued to be used in 0 A.D.'s timeframe. In China specifically chariot dominance peaked during the Spring and Autumn period (c. 771–481 or 403 BC; cf. Sun Tzu's The Art of War). During the Warring States period (c. 481 or 403–221 BC), massed infantry equipped with crossbows became a dominant army feature. Under the Qin (221–206 BC) and Early or Western Han (206 BC – AD 9) war chariots were gradually superseded by cavalry, though they continued to exist and be used on the battlefield, both chariot archers and chariot crossbowmen, as attested by numerous depictions, archaeological remains, and textual evidence. Under the Later or Eastern Han (AD 25–220) the situation was different, but that's outside 0 A.D.'s timeframe anyway.
(I'd also like to see a Kushite chariot archer, as well as the addition of both bigae and quadrigae for Carthage, which are well attested, used on Sicily until the 3rd C BC, and probably longer by various Libyan tribes in North Africa. I believe I've requested them more than once elsewhere on these forums, but I agree it's a low priority.)
^ What he said.
I've made the same argument about the Chinese chariots before.
5 Primary Han Chinese references of chariot/carriages and and one Osprey illustration:
Spoiler
Kushites not having chariots was just a compromise because they already had a very diverse roster. Personally, I don't think it matters if one faction has many different and diverse, but mediocre units, while another faction has fewer, but more specialized, tanky units. It lends to different styles of play, which increases the replayability of the game, rather than it feeling like every roster is a watered down version made to conform to rigid framework. Our factions/civilzations/cultures are too diverse. Rather than pigeonholing these factions, we should further explore and exploit this diversity between the factions.
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8 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
Mmmmm... That looks so much more authentic... I love it!
It seems like creating the right mix of textures is kind of like... cooking.
Mixing up the right ingredients, and spicing it up, just enough, but not too much... I think you got it just right there...
Spoiler
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10 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
Meeting
Gorgeous! Those rocks (metal mines?) are gorgeous. Ground textures? Gorgeous! Alexandermb and wackyserious' work on the unit textures really pops out in the HQ version of that screenshot...
My one criticism would be the use of those paving stones known as Sett: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sett_(paving)
I grew up in Antwerp and that particular type of paving stone is still ubiquitous there, as in many historical cities in Europe and even in some American cities like Boston and new York you can still find it. It has a very 18th - 19th century feel to it, and I can't unsee it. It's too iconic of a pavement stone.
This one is a lot more irregular, and therefore perhaps more authentic looking. A more common type of ancient cobblestones perhaps:
https://cc0textures.com/view?id=PavingStones016
A different type of Sett, but far less iconic looking, and therefore maybe more appropriate:
https://cc0textures.com/view?id=PavingStones010
And this is perhaps the most historically realistic type of pavement stone (and my personal preference, maybe with some color correction):
https://cc0textures.com/view?id=PavingStones054
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7 hours ago, FeXoR said:
Just to let you know @Feldfeld : I am working on a mountain shape painter and a continuous area placer (to check for player connectivity).
Maybe @smiley has alternative ideas but I guess having multiple ways to do similar things (if different enough) or to pick the "better" of two won't hurt
I think that one of the things that makes wow's mountain demonstration stand out, apart from their structure, is the use of superior textures with excellent normal maps (or height maps, I dunno). I think these textures could be "easily" combined with procedural techniques as well.
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Just now, Sundiata said:
2300 tris ain't nothing for a King
I just saw that there are way too many triangles in those three little nobs on the side of the headdress. You'll barely even notice them when zoomed in.
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2 hours ago, Lopess said:
I am trying a different approach, a little more similar to reconstruction.
That's pretty amazing man...! Really....
2300 tris ain't nothing for a King
Why not just call them "Jaguar Lords"? Sounds super cool and apparently what they are referred to by one of your sources.
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58 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
Hindu Kush
Bruh...
Really nice...
I think it could use a little more shrubbery though...
Spoiler
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@wowgetoffyourcellphone, those look really gorgeous! Quite literally an order of magnitude better than what we have now...
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Reminds me of this Kushite arrowhead:
I wonder what it says...
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On 1/6/2020 at 1:20 PM, Nescio said:
@Sundiata, you know I don't necessarily disagree with you. What I'm fundamentally saying is be careful and critical (as the approach should be towards all sources). If something appears in 2nd C BC Egypt or later then it doesn't automatically mean it's an Egyptian innovation; it could easily be the result of Roman, Celtic, Macedonian, Persian, Kushite, etc. influence.
But I never said, or insinuated that these shields must have been invented by the Ptolemies. I'm honestly not that interested in who invented them. What I'm interested in is that the Ptolemies used them, making them a valuable art reference for Ptolemaic units.
I agree with being cautious about sources, but,
On 6/13/2020 at 12:12 PM, Nescio said:To clarify, I'm neither against nor in favour of giving Ptolemaic units in 0 A.D. those rectangular shields. I simply don't know, I'm not an archaeologist. My point is the mosaic on its own is not a reliable depiction of Ptolemaic Egypt (though it could be used to support what is known from Ptolemaic sources, if any)
This keeps coming up. But in my opening post I said:
On 1/5/2020 at 3:03 PM, Sundiata said:I noticed that Ptolemies used pretty unique looking, curved rectangular shields alongside the more traditional types.
I first noticed them in the Palestrina Nile Mosaic from Italy, quite a while ago, but didn't know what to make of them. Now I've come across enough examples, including local Egyptian sources to feel relatively confident in my suggestion.
Which I followed by providing 4 primary Egyptian sources in the form of terracottas depicting rectangular shields, now followed by a 5th marvelous example shared by Genava55. In hindsight I realize that I didn't provide the links to their original sources, which I should have done. I guess I thought people would just reverse image search them if they needed to.
The Palestrina Mosaic was simply what alerted me to the possible existence of such shields, which made me dig deeper. It's the primary Egyptian sources that convinced me, which also add weight to the probable accuracy of those shields in the Palestrina Mosaic. So, to date, we've found 6 independent period sources supporting each other that those shields were in fact a thing.
Today, I still stand by my opening post:
"In order to distinguish Hellenistic units between the various Hellenistic factions, it's nice to include those little details that are unique to each faction.
I noticed that Ptolemies used pretty unique looking, [small] curved rectangular shields alongside the more traditional types."
On 6/12/2020 at 12:53 PM, LordGood said:
LordGood doesn't disappoint! I love it man! I vote yes! It's historical. It's unique! A few of these will help distinguish Ptolemaic units from other Hellenistic units, without resorting to historical fantasies or misinterpretations. I think it's great
I think he should even be able rank up with chainmail, as per Genava's latest reference.
Also, how come Ptolemies don't have Machimoi in their roster? Or do they just have another name?
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@Alexandermb, something for you?
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15 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:
I have same in main wee need planned as community srtist the next moves. I want better maps.
I'd say, let wowgetoffyourcellphone do his thing, and let's support him in every way we can. I know I'll be doing my part by hitting that "like" button every time he posts something new!
Who knows I might actually attempt modeling some new assets again... Can never have enough quality assets...
If alpha 24's Atlas actually supports mac properly I might even try to do a map myself.
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8 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
@Stan` and I have a gentleman's agreement to work together to revamp the game's terrains for Alpha 25.
8 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:It's also not just about adding some good looking new terrain textures to vanilla, we have to get rid of the textures that are no longer acceptable. We will also have to redesign a lot of maps to use the new terrains, because a real revamp won't be a one for one replacement of the old terrains. New biomes will need to be designed and the maps adjusted to them. Lots of work. Doable in a year though and completely worth it. It'll make 0 ad look like a real AAA game.
Music to my ears... Really!
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@wowgetoffyourcellphone gorgeous man... We could really use that stuff in vanilla too
You really have a way of bringing out the best in Pyrogenesis...
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Welcome to the forum!
The subject was recently discussed here:
And some interesting visual information here:
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43 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:
Yee but not in mostly of our civs. Even in the bible are dome kind veganism, but thats no the point. Here. Hunting was vast of normal.
True... But, just for the sake of being argumentative, one could argue that hunting is overrepresented in RTS-games like 0AD, which depict sedentary agro-pastoralist cultures and civilizations that by and large didn't really depend much on hunting for food. Then again, it's a game of ancient warfare and I assume that armies on campaign would depend a lot more on hunting than the average village peasant. So, there's that...
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3 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:
El veganismo no existía en la edad antigua.
Actually vegetarianism and to a degree, veganism did exist during Antiquity. Particularly among some Hindu and Buddhist groups. Jainism is explicitly vegetarian. Chinese Taoist monks are also vegetarian/vegan. Zoroastrianism explicitly promotes vegetarianism. Some Greek philosophical traditions supported vegetarianism. Some Jewish sects and individuals followed vegetarian lifestyles. A lot of of especially Orthodox Christian monastic traditions and ascetics also encourage vegetarianism. Many Islamic Sufi's are also vegetarian. There are definitely more.
I'm not saying it should or even can be depicted in-game. Just adding some nuance.
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@m7600, @Ultimate Aurelian, some stuff I'm sure you'll enjoy!
From the lands of Sundiata, comes absolutely heavenly music. Kora music by the Griots, or "Jali" of the old Mali Empire. This is one of the most beautiful pieces I know. Brings tears to my eyes, actually:
Add the heavenly female voice of Sona Jobarteh, one of the few female griots in the world, and I'm left speechless:
Two absolute legends... Old men playing desert blues... "The world is not changed by man. Man is changed by the world"-
Traditional Bambara music from Mali, by Fatoumata Diawara, mixed with traditional European orchestra, creates a beautiful lamentation, decrying the fall of Timbuktu to extremists in 2012:
Some very sweet Tuareg music:
Similarly sweet Tuareg music:
More desert blues (or rock?), by Bombino, in Agadez (more Tuareg music):
Modern Hausa/Fulani music by Di'Ja, mixing traditional elements (really cool video):
Of course, I also have to share one of my new all-time favorites! A modern Arab-Sudanese Afrobeat, called "Kandaka", from the ancient Kushite titles for Queens and Queen-mothers (Kandake). It's a love song for Sudanese women in general:
(I love the ankh around the wrist of Mazmars... The Sudanese have not forgotten who they are
)
This last one is a little more abstract. People sometimes say, Hip Hop is dead. Some people don't understand what it means, because they think that what they see on the tv is Hip Hop. But it's not. Hip Hop is a vehicle for change and revolution. It's a form of media for the disenfranchised masses. A means of communicating ideas, philosophies, news and poetry, for people that had few other means available to them. It's essentially open source music before open source was even a thing. Most popular Hip Hop these days is "compromised" in this sense. But sometimes "real" Hip Hop still appears in places you'd least expect it. Like this one (use subtitles):
Of course I also just love it because he says that Taharqa is his grandfather and the Queen mother of Kush is his grandmother
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1 hour ago, pauconde.8@gmail.com said:
I want to ask you, please, to disable the option to kill animals with the exception of defense.
Yes! I know! This may seem very strange to you. But I think that simply by asking them this I can contribute by taking care of the environment a little. Did you wonder why or how?
If you cannot kill animals in a game to eat or just kill them, then you will be aware that you cannot step over nature.
I know it may sound silly. But thinking a little about unconsciousness is a big step for consciousness.
All this occurred to me when I was quarantined and read the news of the killing of the Boswana elephants.
It's just a suggestion. I will not consider the game to be better or worse for what they decide. I just think this would be good for building a healthier and less abusive society.I think we can all agree that there is way too much environmental destruction in the world today, and working towards a "less abusive society" is commendable. But the obvious problem with your suggestion is that 0AD is a game of ancient warfare, and in a single match, we can easily kill thousands of units...
Basically, in a way, we're all digital mass murderers for playing this game
Removing the option to kill virtual animals will, generally speaking, not result in more virtuous players.
But perhaps you'd be interested in the "No blood and gore mod for 0 A.D.", or the "NoViolence-Mod for 0 A.D.", which are both available through the in-game mod-downloader and can be useful for younger players:
https://0ad.mod.io/no-blood-and-gore-mod
https://0ad.mod.io/noviolence-mod
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2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
Is the Thracian Black Cloak not good enough of a counter?
1 hour ago, Nescio said:Currently those are Athenian stoa champions (which is problematic). Historically they served as an elite vanguard under Philip V or Perseus, the last Macedonian kings. All other Macedonian soldiers are based on Alexander's army, though.
We've been over this before a few times already.
Black Cloaks are indeed a little problematic for the Athenians.
They were used by the Macedonians, on record. So they should at least be part of the Macedonian roster.
It's a matter of increased historical accuracy, in addition to a better gameplay experience (finally a sword unit to counter rams).
It really seems like a straightforward fix to me. Add Thracian Black Cloaks to the Macedonian roster. It's a win-win.
How did they even end up in the Athenian roster anyway? Not complaining or anything, but it almost seems like a simple mistake someone made x amount of years ago and it just stuck. Or is it a legacy from when all the Greek factions were still a single faction?
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On 6/5/2020 at 2:59 AM, SDM said:
It's a fun short listen if you're interested in history. Every video feels a bit embellished as a non-historian (sources are listed in his Patreon apparently), but the voice is quite soothing. I listen to the videos during my workouts.
Thanks for sharing! I actually saw it. Not too bad...
I agree, his videos are a little embellished. He tries though, but it's not quite up to academic standards. But I think they're decent intro's to relatively obscure chapters in African history. I occasionally see a video of his.
There's an amazing piece of art shared in the video you linked, and I really love it!
I don't even know who made this
It almost looks like @Victor Rossi's work, but I didn't see anything on his artstation page, and reverse image searches turn up nothing? Was it commissioned specifically for the video?? Don't know. But it's on point!
I still have hundreds of references to post... I've fallen so hopelessly behind...
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War Elephants
in Art Development
Posted
Maybe this is also interesting?
And because I shared some post-Maurya Gandhara references in the previous post, I'll share a Gandhara model building showing a roof with a noticeable degree of continuity with the typical Maurya style roofs we also feature in-game:
Reliquary in the shape of a cruciform miniature building, Gandhara Art, Shaikhan Dhri, 2nd-3rd Century AD:
While at the same time, Hellenistic influences are sometimes quite overt even as late as the 3rd century AD (and well beyond)
Gandhara Art, Pakistan, 3rd century. The Great Departure (Prince Siddharta, later Buddha, with his horse Kanthaka):