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Rules during the game


maxticatrix
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I played many in previous Alphas and now I have time to play again. I have found that there are no moderators and that some pro players are quite toxic. It seems to me a more serious problem than smurf accounts and other bad practices that are easier to control.
 
So, in addition to what administrators can do, I've considered using these simple rules in the games I host. Sorry if they are somewhat poorly written because I use an automatic translator.
 
I like the rules that Norse Harold puts into his games. I think they are good for creating a friendly and fun culture around the game, however I think it is possible to simplify them to make them more effective and focused on the worst current problems: the toxic behaviors of some pro players.
 
I would like to know your opinion about these rules and your suggestions. Thank you very much and sorry for my bad English. I only speak Spanish. See you in the game.
 
Rules:
1. Be kind and helpful to newbies and other players.
2. Toxic comments can lead to immediate expulsion
3. Pro players must set an example of good behavior.
4. Don't quit or leave early. Play as a team and share resources.
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Toxic comments are hard to police with a bot, as one could legitimately speak about certain subjects and if the bot is dumb it will give false positives. However, if it can maybe give accounts a toxicity score, perhaps hosts and other players can choose to play with that person or not. Or maybe that's a little Orwellian/Social Credit Score-ish.

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1 hour ago, Emperior said:

When it is about profanity, this will be at the moment very small issue with whatever has been said. There are known players who are extremely toxic, use a lot of profanity but not just that. Please come and see by yourself, it is a bad film to be watched, but there is noone to deal with it . Some of the senetces could be counted racist etc. Not mentioning here any nicknames but any of them reading this, will know this is post about himself. 

[snip comments about the lobby, which have been moved to the Lobby Help and Moderation thread]

BOT can deal with half of the things, the other half would have to be done by actually ingame moderator but there is no such function as this as well as appriopriate function for detetecting and baning so changing IP wont help..

Quote

perhaps hosts and other players can choose to play with that person or not.

Again, and again I see a post where the task is given to the hosts with little power.

Yes, there are known players who are extremely toxic. I assume that you're referring to their conduct in-game as well as in the lobby. Since this thread is about in-game only I'll refer to that aspect only. The comments about lobby moderation were moved to the thread titled Lobby Help and Moderation, so the discussion about lobby rules can be continued on-topic there.

"The services hosted by the players are moderated by those players. That is to say, each host moderates their own match."
 

Hosters have kick and ban capability, so there's not "little power" that they have. But, many hosters ignore this power and don't take action. That is the real problem. So I applaud maxticatrix for implementing rules for his games. This is exactly what more hosters need to do.

Edited by Norse_Harold
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6 hours ago, maxticatrix said:

I would like to know your opinion about these rules and your suggestions. Thank you very much and sorry for my bad English. I only speak Spanish. See you in the game.

The games that I host typically involve intermediate level players. I think that applying rules to games involving "pro" players (meaning players who are the most skilled, currently active players in public games) has different challenges from applying rules to intermediate level games.

There are some players who have chosen to conform to the rules while playing in my games, and there are some players who have chosen to simply not join my games. This is a good thing in my opinion, because then it's voluntary cooperation for those participating in the game.

The players who have chosen to simply not join my games and continued with their disruptive and toxic behavior tend to be "pro" players, unfortunately. I think that they've been acting in an absence of rules for such a long period of time that they think it's normal. Something needs to be done, but you'll quickly find that trying to force players who potentially have psychological disorders to follow rules might have retaliatory reaction from them. I say don't force anything, just make games with rules and see who joins. If the pro/disruptive players don't join games that you host then don't force them to join (and therefore be subject to the rules).

Some of the "pro" players have already been joining the games that I host and following the rules. Hopefully more of the "pro" players will voluntarily decide to follow rules and set an example for the others.

Edited by Norse_Harold
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6 hours ago, maxticatrix said:

I have found that ... some pro players are quite toxic. It seems to me a more serious problem than smurf accounts and other bad practices that are easier to control.

Okay, on the one hand I think it's a good idea to start with a short set of rules if you want their adoption by "pro", potentially toxic players. On the other hand, you should be transparent with the complete list of rules that you intend to enforce, and also only enforce those rules that you have announced to the players. This way there won't be any surprises for the players or for yourself.

It seems like you might have some unstated rules about smurf accounts and "other bad practices that are easier to control". If so, list them. But, you didn't list them because you want to start with a short list of rules for the "pro" players. Okay, good, but be consistent with your own rules!

If at some point you find that you absolutely must add more rules then go ahead and do it. You can even announce it in-game at the moment that it's necessary, then adjust your list of rules on the forum. And, invite feedback, so that the rules have community input and are a cooperative effort to refine and follow. See the example of how I did this here.

Edited by Norse_Harold
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6 hours ago, maxticatrix said:

I would like to know your opinion about these rules and your suggestions.

As far as the particular list of rules to choose, I think it is good to start with a short list considering your goal of encouraging the "pro" players to be on board with following the rules and helping everyone have a good experience in the games that you host. But, if you want suggestions about what rules to include, take a look at what the professionals are doing. That's what I did when I chose the list of rules for the games that I host. I don't remember exactly where I found guidance on writing a code of conduct for gaming, but I think that AoE IV and my list of rules have some common source material, since our rules seem quite similar and were written within a few months of each other. AoE's rules seem to have been posted first, but I'm fairly sure that I used more generic guidance material.

Blizzard's in-game code of conduct

Age of Empires IV code of conduct

Squad code of conduct

 

Edited by Norse_Harold
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30 minutes ago, Norse_Harold said:

Hosters have kick and ban capability, so there's not "little power" that they have. But, many hosters ignore this power and don't take action.

Guess what? The players should also be considered responsible for enforcing the rules. If they don't approve of certain conduct then they should be taking action in order to prevent that conduct. It starts with their own behavior. Two wrongs don't make a right. Players should not try to rationalize that their own disruptive behavior is okay because other regular players have certain disruptive behavior as well. Players, if you don't approve then punish the other players in a constructive way. Refuse to join their games unless they correct their behavior. Join hosts who have rules for their games. Apply rules to the games that you host.

There are only a handful of hosters who have good connections, fast computers, correct port forwarding and correctly functioning firewalls. As a result, these hosters tend to be the most popular team game hosters. They could be considered "key terrain" for applying rules. But, if the disruptive players choose not to cooperate then they'll look for ways around the rules. The strategy should be prepared for this, and ideally split the non-disruptive "pro" players from the hardcore-stubborn-disruptive "pro" players. The hardcore disruptive players will just host their own games and step on each others' toes. Fine, let them do that, but don't step on the toes of players who want to get along and support everyone's fun. And, someday, the stubborn ones might choose to follow the rules in order to participate in some fun gameplay for everyone.

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2 hours ago, Norse_Harold said:

Guess what? The players should also be considered responsible for enforcing the rules. If they don't approve of certain conduct then they should be taking action in order to prevent that conduct. It starts with their own behavior. Two wrongs don't make a right. Players should not try to rationalize that their own disruptive behavior is okay because other regular players have certain disruptive behavior as well. Players, if you don't approve then punish the other players in a constructive way. Refuse to join their games unless they correct their behavior. Join hosts who have rules for their games. Apply rules to the games that you host.

There are only a handful of hosters who have good connections, fast computers, correct port forwarding and correctly functioning firewalls. As a result, these hosters tend to be the most popular team game hosters. They could be considered "key terrain" for applying rules. But, if the disruptive players choose not to cooperate then they'll look for ways around the rules. The strategy should be prepared for this, and ideally split the non-disruptive "pro" players from the hardcore-stubborn-disruptive "pro" players. The hardcore disruptive players will just host their own games and step on each others' toes. Fine, let them do that, but don't step on the toes of players who want to get along and support everyone's fun. And, someday, the stubborn ones might choose to follow the rules in order to participate in some fun gameplay for everyone.

I do understand that you are helper, but it feel like you have missed a lot of topics , posts for the past few years which basically tells you that even if user ban one specific player from the host, he will make new account, show he can play then play as new account. Basically it's like getting fed by the host.

Again, as far as I remember there isnt many skilled level player which means that if they ban 1, the other one will host and the host will ban the other one for banning the toxic player.

You are blaming hosts for everything, it's fine. We survived so many years, i doubt it will change any time in future. I am sorry to say that, but I doubt that what I say here it will get to you if it didnt get from 2017 when I always been saying the same over and over. Doing nothing as lobby moderators you are putting hosts with tied hands. Thats all. There is nothing else to be explained here. If you want to keep pushing on your kind of studburn thinking hosts are the blame.

 

Here ya go: write an article in one post, so I at least I wont have to read 3 posts of the same person rather than one post including everything what that person want to say.

One, more thing. That what is happening it is because it been let by lobby moderators, starting from smurfing, then toxicty. That is only my opinion. It can be wrong or good, can't judge but you are trying hard to push the fault on hosts which are not the fault here. It's bascially "you exclude , we exclude from the game. " To get players from your host, we'll ddos you. = Ask Havran why he gets dc if he hosts. Anyone can tell you that.

Sadly, I doubt you seen anything from what's been happening as you were barely around from 2017.

 

This is not to offend anyone. That;s the way which I talk/write.

// This is my last post in this topic and probably on the forums. mods have seperated my answers to another topic? No reason.  Anyway, @Stan please advise me how to delete any data from the forums with this account as well. Won't be creating new one. Thanks.

 

Edited by Emperior
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Emperior, your post was primarily about lobby moderation, and it was off-topic in this thread. I requested that it be moved, along with the replies about lobby moderation, to the Lobby Help and Moderation thread. It's not "no reason".

I think there's been a miscommunication or assumptions made. I haven't been here since 2017. I only started participating in 2021, and improvements to lobby moderation are happening slowly. Please be supportive instead of destructive. Yes, it's frustrating that things are slow. But, why be destructive and punitive at the exact time that things are improving?

I'm on your side about the need to improve lobby moderation. Let's talk in a 0ad game or in IRC to correct the miscommunication.

Edited by Norse_Harold
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17 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Toxic comments are hard to police with a bot, as one could legitimately speak about certain subjects and if the bot is dumb it will give false positives. However, if it can maybe give accounts a toxicity score, perhaps hosts and other players can choose to play with that person or not. Or maybe that's a little Orwellian/Social Credit Score-ish.

What about use other kind of communication taunts or some pre made either phrases. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 20/09/2022 at 10:58 AM, maxticatrix said:

2. Toxic comments can lead to immediate expulsion

Everyone can be the other one's "toxic" so without arbitrage nor a first warning it's not possible to enforce such a rule without being unfair and arbitrary.

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