Introducing the Official community mod for Alpha 26

[real_tabasco_sauce]

6 hours ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

This is interesting.  I have one question about Sparta and the Neodamodes spearman they get in p3 for 30 food and 20 metal.  I assume their main benefit is the cheaper cost?

So it should be easier for the Spartan player to keep a high population. That is in addition to hoplite tradition tech making their regular spearmen train 25% faster.

Do we want Sparta to be a civ that can spam units easily? In earlier alphas Sparta had a -10% pop cap.  Was there a basis for that debuff? Or was that just hype around the famous "300" battle that didn't necessarily reflect Sparta over its strong period?

The intent was for the neodamodes reforms to be kind of a last resort when sparta is low on military. IIRC the 180 pop debuff was there to justify superior infantry and champions, but it really wasn't worth it. When it was removed i think a lot of ppl were in favor of removing it.

The neodamodes are not intended to make sparta a spammy civ, so I think they should be made a little weaker than the regular hoplite infantry, and also maybe make them unaffected by leonidas.

Also, I think the p1 champs have turned out much less powerful than I anticipated, so I think i'll remove the train time penalty and move the movement speed tech to p1.

Edited July 25 by real_tabasco_sauce

[BeTe]

13 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

The intent was for the neodamodes reforms to be kind of a last resort when sparta is low on military. IIRC the 180 pop debuff was there to justify superior infantry and champions, but it really wasn't worth it. When it was removed i think a lot of ppl were in favor of removing it.

The neodamodes are not intended to make sparta a spammy civ, so I think they should be made a little weaker than the regular hoplite infantry, and also maybe make them unaffected by leonidas.

Also, I think the p1 champs have turned out much less powerful than I anticipated, so I think i'll remove the train time penalty and move the movement speed tech to p1.

Fyi, I tried 2 games vs CPU to rush those Spartan champions - but I don't think it can be done on time. Maybe I didn't optimize Bo, idk. But with normal BO your Barracks are ready around 3:00 (or so) and you will have stronger eco + outproduce champions build, right? 

Btw, in general, I am curious why champions are so expensive in 0AD? I mean they are stronger but can't gather resources which is direct harming eco - according to this, shouldn't they be at least equally expensive? I am just curious why it's designed that way?

[chrstgtr]

7 minutes ago, BeTe said:

Btw, in general, I am curious why champions are so expensive in 0AD? I mean they are stronger but can't gather resources which is direct harming eco - according to this, shouldn't they be at least equally expensive? I am just curious why it's designed that way?

Once you’re fighting with champions you’re generally engaged in constant fight. The fact that they can’t gather is irrelevant as you generally would never use them for that. 
 

They’re more expensive for the reason you identify—they’re stronger. 
 

One can argue on whether their costs, in terms of resources and train time, are property set

[BeTe]

24 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Once you’re fighting with champions you’re generally engaged in constant fight. The fact that they can’t gather is irrelevant as you generally would never use them for that. 
 

They’re more expensive for the reason you identify—they’re stronger. 
 

One can argue on whether their costs, in terms of resources and train time, are property set

Yeah that makes sense. Tho, I think I actually used CS units to gather resources (metal/wood) near battlefield/center of map between fights. If you need to quickly rebuild units from 10 Barracks after big loses and you're low on food, you want women to gather food and CS for wood/metal. Unless you are floating something, which is usually suboptimal, at least in other RTSes. Tho, I guess in most cases you start floating some resource before fight is started, so maybe this is not always case... 

What I talk about, I like ability to choose more economy/macro or more military buildings during game. According to that, if you chose military approach, you must 1) scout 2) if he goes eco, be more aggressive and make damage so you don't fall behind. Otherwise, if you go eco, you need to 1) scout opponent and see what he builds 2) properly react (if he is going military) you need defenses, walls, play defensively, etc.

Maybe I am wrong and fixated to how other games works. But 0AD is weird to me (doesn't mean wrong/bad, idk yet)...

Edited July 26 by BeTe

[chrstgtr]

59 minutes ago, BeTe said:

Yeah that makes sense. Tho, I think I actually used CS units to gather resources (metal/wood) near battlefield/center of map between fights. If you need to quickly rebuild units from 10 Barracks after big loses and you're low on food, you want women to gather food and CS for wood/metal. Unless you are floating something, which is usually suboptimal, at least in other RTSes. Tho, I guess in most cases you start floating some resource before fight is started, so maybe this is not always case... 

What I talk about, I like ability to choose more economy/macro or more military buildings during game. According to that, if you chose military approach, you must 1) scout 2) if he goes eco, be more aggressive and make damage so you don't fall behind. Otherwise, if you go eco, you need to 1) scout opponent and see what he builds 2) properly react (if he is going military) you need defenses, walls, play defensively, etc.

Maybe I am wrong and fixated to how other games works. But 0AD is weird to me (doesn't mean wrong/bad, idk yet)...

No disrespect but you have some things to learn about 0AD. I think you're the one who created another thread on whether 0AD should have less units on the screen. In that thread, the OP started with a bunch of premises (like it's hard to identify the types of units present), which just aren't true once you get more experience playing. 

All this is to say, yes, OAD is different from some other RTS. That doesn't necessarily make it worse, though. And, I suspect a lot of the opinions you are saying now will change as you gain more experience/get better at the game and realize some of the things you are doing now don't make a ton of sense. 

Anyways, cheers and welcome to the community. 

Edited July 26 by chrstgtr

[BeTe]

14 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

No disrespect but you have some things to learn about 0AD. I think you're the one who created another thread on whether 0AD should have less units on the screen. In that thread, the OP started with a bunch of premises (like it's hard to identify the types of units present), which just aren't true once you get more experience playing. 

All this is to say, yes, OAD is different from some other RTS. That doesn't necessarily make it worse, though. And, I suspect a lot of the opinions you are saying now will change as you gain more experience/get better at the game and realize some of the things you are doing now don't make a ton of sense. 

Anyways, cheers and welcome to the community. 

1) i forgot what I actually wrote, but "hard to identify" is visual not mechanical issue for me (at least now). It just looks ugly (and it's subjective ofc). 

2) Yeah basically you are right, i just need to learn that's why i wrote "idk yet". Usually if I write something, it's not for purpose of teaching others but rather for learning purpose. (Dialectical approach?) Definitely I should make it clear, but essentially my goal is to encourage people to prove me wrong or explain some parts i am missing. I give my perspective and hope for different one. Anyways, you just reminded me to start this thread: https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/120864-advanced-players-1v1-replays/ , so I'd really appreciate someone to teach me a bit.  

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

3 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

One can argue on whether their costs, in terms of resources and train time, are property set

My general feeling is that Champs could be a little weaker and a lot cheaper. I have no hard data to show, though. Just my general feeling. I like Age of Mythology's "champ" cost ratio to standard units better than 0 A.D.'s. So, that colors my view, for sure. 

[chrstgtr]

4 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

My general feeling is that Champs could be a little weaker and a lot cheaper. I have no hard data to show, though. Just my general feeling. I like Age of Mythology's "champ" cost ratio to standard units better than 0 A.D.'s. So, that colors my view, for sure. 

I’m mostly fine with them. Except for how they take forever to make. I can have all the resources and 10 unit producing buildings and I will still choose not to produce them during a battle because their production is so long that my army will become too small by the time they’re ready to fight. Having to unlock them is also a pain that I find unnecessary.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

3 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

I’m mostly fine with them. Except for how they take forever to make. I can have all the resources and 10 unit producing buildings and I will still choose not to produce them during a battle because their production is so long that my army will become too small by the time they’re ready to fight. Having to unlock them is also a pain that I find unnecessary.

I agree with this. They take way too darn long to train compared to citizen soldiers and unlocking is a pain. It would be different if citizen soldiers took longer too. The ratio is what's important, and 2x training time is too much. What if....

 

Unlock tech available in P2 for barracks, get them unlocked for free at the Fortress in P3. So, they're available by default in P3 from expensive Fortresses, but have the option to unlock them early in P2. Also, lower train time:

 

Infantry Champs 20s -> 15 seconds.

Cavalry Champs 25s -> 20 seconds.

Elephant Champs 36s -> 25 seconds.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

I think the unlock techs from barracks/stable are be ok since those are buildings you want anyway. It could also be a case by case situation. Definitely champions coming from unique buildings (Han academy)(gym) should get a train speed buff according to the building cost. Han academy is 300 stone 300 metal.

[chrstgtr]

51 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Unlock tech available in P2 for barracks

It won't change anything--it'll be cost prohibitive. What's the point of having it? It adds a ton of time and costs a ton to do. 

51 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Fortress in P3

Don't care. No one is going to spam forts to use as a barrack. 

51 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Infantry Champs 20s -> 15 seconds.

Cavalry Champs 25s -> 20 seconds.

Elephant Champs 36s -> 25 seconds.

Fine. I would probably be more radical but conservative is a better approach. If that makes champs too strong then champs' stats should be nerfed. 

 

My view is: if you can afford it, it should be available. Everything else, including long train time and locking them behind a tech, just encourages CS spam. 

Edited July 26 by chrstgtr

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I'd like to keep up diversifying champion units. I think it could be cool to let the kushite axe champs be a bit cheaper, weaker, but fast moving.

We did the chariot mixin, longsword mixin (not comm mod, but could be), we have the persian immortals weapon switching now.

Any other ideas?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

8 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I'd like to keep up diversifying champion units. I think it could be cool to let the kushite axe champs be a bit cheaper, weaker, but fast moving.

We did the chariot mixin, longsword mixin (not comm mod, but could be), we have the persian immortals weapon switching now.

Any other ideas?

I'd suggesting looking into what DE has done with Hoplites and Phalangites. 

[chrstgtr]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I'd like to keep up diversifying champion units. I think it could be cool to let the kushite axe champs be a bit cheaper, weaker, but fast moving.

We did the chariot mixin, longsword mixin (not comm mod, but could be), we have the persian immortals weapon switching now.

Any other ideas?

It might be fun to do something non-military. A couple ideas below.

1-a unit that can collect resources. This would allow you to potentially mass them early, so it’s not a huge drain to have a bunch of idle units. This would be especially helpful in p2, i think. 
 

2-a unit that can build. Either a really quick builder. Or a unit that can build really cheap/free buildings. It plays with the idea of territory expansion, which has untapped potential, I think. Also, deals with the problem of champs being a huge drag on eco like (1) above, which, again, would be real helpful if available in p2. 
 

3-something like the Han minister but stronger. 
 

One other note, I don’t think all champs becoming gimmick units is desirable. It’s ok that more than one civ has champ swords, or whatever, that function the same as another civ. With that said, having one fun unique unit can give a civ a real unique feel if it’s done right. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

12 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

One other note, I don’t think all champs becoming gimmick units is desirable. It’s ok that more than one civ has champ swords, or whatever, that function the same as another civ. With that said, having one fun unique unit can give a civ a real unique feel if it’s done right. 

Yeah im thinking like at least one unique unit per civ give or take.

[chrstgtr]

4 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Yeah im thinking like at least one unique unit per civ give or take.

Agree

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Also, "unique" doesn't have to be gimmicky. Some special aura or ability is good, while the base usage of the unit mostly still conforms to its type. So, for instance, the Iberian champ cav still has its Jav Cav usage and stats, but also its ability to damage buildings which is unique among the Jav Cav type.

Macedonian Hypaspists can be upgraded to Silver Shields. Perhaps in this mode they have a small aura that boosts nearby troops a little. In the later Macedonian kingdom, Hypaspists became administrators and officers, so this small feature could indicate that.

The Macedonian Companion Cavalry could be slightly faster than other champ cavs and have a small (10%?) attack bonus vs. infantry, but costs slightly more.

Persian Immortals can already switch between Spear and Bow. Maybe also give them a "Campaign Panoply" tech that upgrades their look (and stats) from palace guard robes to scale mail (this is in DE). And also give the player the ability to train either the melee or ranged version by default, so if they actually want the ranged version they don't always have to train the melee version first.

The Bactrian Cataphract's attack could have some splash damage. Perhaps a feature of all Cataphracts (the other being the Seleucid Cataphract).

Spartan Spartiate hoplites could give an armor boost to other hoplites nearby. I mean a very very small radius, like 3 meters, to simulate a "shield wall"/"phalanx" effect. Also, look into how DE makes the Skiritai Runner more interesting.

Brythonic Chariot could have its rider jump off when the chariot is killed. He then runs at the enemy with a sword, maybe getting a kill before himself getting killed. 

Seleucid Scythe Chariots could have a trample aura. This needs extra code, but has been desired for some time.

 

 

[Outis]

8 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Spartan Spartiate hoplites could give an armor boost to other hoplites nearby. I mean a very very small radius, like 3 meters, to simulate a "shield wall"/"phalanx" effect.

This can be made so that it makes the formations useful as well

[Outis]

9 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The Macedonian Companion Cavalry could be slightly faster than other champ cavs and have a small (10%?) attack bonus vs. infantry, but costs slightly more.

What would be super cool is to have a charge bonus on shock cavalry like the companions but i guess it is also extra code...

[TheCJ]

I agree with @BeTe that the tactical decisions you have in p2 are somewhat limited and could be expanded.
I believe it might be worth considering to add more "half-champion" units like the naked fanatics, that serve the purpose of a trained soldier rather then a citizen soldier, but don't have the equipment requirements (and according metal cost) of an actual champion.
Because at the moment, champions represent the pinnacle of soldiery a certain civilization was able to muster, while citizen soldiers are, the way they function in the game, just normal workers you gave a spear or a sword.
I believe a unit type between those two makes a lot of sense and could positively impact the tactical elements of the game aswell, as it gives players an option to actually fight a booming player (without running your own gatherers/citizen soldiers across the map and thereby sacrificing your eco) and not just raid them.
It would also somewhat negate the booming = turteling problem, as you would have access to stronger units in p2, that can pose a threat to a player that just booms, but can't gather resources themselves.

It would also have the side effect that battles might happen sooner with smaller armies, which some people might enjoy 

An alternative would be to add normal workers, that can fight notably worse than citizen soldiers, which is basically the same concept of adding a third (or fourth if you count mercenaries) type of unit, but might be easier to implement. 
If one were to add workers, they could be produced as fast as citizen soldiers are at the moment, while citizen soldiers get increased build time. That way you wouldn't need to decrease the build time of champions to make them more useful and you would slow down the game overall... (I would welcome a change like that, but I understand that others like how fast 0ad plays)

[BeTe]

I just did quick research (googleing "wildfiregames.com" for "citizen solider" term) trying to understand why we have concept of CS. 

Just as FYI, I don't suggest anything. 

more relevant:

https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/40114-balancing-citizen-soldiers-cs-long-shot/

https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/39378-gameplay-issue-booming-turtling/ 

a bit less relevant (imho):

https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/20617-why-the-citizen-soldier-concept-is-wrong/ 

https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/22017-trying-to-trace-back-the-citizen-soldier/

[Nobbi]

On 26/07/2024 at 6:47 PM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I'd like to keep up diversifying champion units. I think it could be cool to let the kushite axe champs be a bit cheaper, weaker, but fast moving.

We did the chariot mixin, longsword mixin (not comm mod, but could be), we have the persian immortals weapon switching now.

Any other ideas?

I still didn't see people using them. So I don't know how relevant this unit/diversification really is. Maybe people didn't realize they can make them in barracks.  :/ But I really like the idea of this small differences, like the Iberian fire CAV.

We should make champions available as soon as one enters P3. There should be no extra tech for it. Also there should be a balance for CIVs, which need extra buildings for champs. Some of that buildings have high costs or bad unit stats (the Athenian gymnasium still doesn't extend the area of a player).

My experience with champ build time in team games is not that bad, when I start fighting there wouldn't be enough resources to make constant champions with reduced building time. So I don't consider it one of the biggest issues in 0AD.

Rebalancing archers would be more relevant, people again complain about getting archers CIVs, when games are with random CIVs!

 

Edited August 16 by Nobbi

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

11 hours ago, Nobbi said:

Also there should be a balance for CIVs, which need extra buildings for champs. Some of that buildings have high costs or bad unit stats (the Athenian gymnasium still doesn't extend the area of a player).

Many people suggest that these units need to be replaced by stables/barracks. This is boring imo. The worst offender for this is of course the famous han academy costing 300 stone and 300 metal. We can turn this disadvantage into an advantage/ differentiation feature by removing unlock techs from these buildings and/or decreasing train time proportionally to their cost.

[Gurken Khan]

27 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

The worst offender for this is of course the famous han academy costing 300 stone and 300 metal. We can turn this disadvantage into an advantage/ differentiation feature by removing unlock techs from these buildings and/or decreasing train time proportionally to their cost.

?

The only champ building with a kind of unlock tec is the Gymnasion? And why are the Han academies so expensive anyways?

[real_tabasco_sauce]

https://gitea.wildfiregames.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/pulls

Here's a list of patches for the next version of the community mod. Feel free to leave comments.

A short list:

• Champions trained from special buildings and temples train 25% faster
  • carth sacred cav moved back to temple as a test.
  • This is intended to greatly improve the viability of champions that come from buildings other than the barracks and stable.
• Han champ building cheaper 300s, 300m -> 200s, 200m
• loom 150 f -> 100 f
• team vision tech added to the market, still available in from the cc.
• Walls can be built over trees, destroying the trees upon completion (Thanks @Grapjas)
• Archer class buff: 0.2 more damage and +0.1 move speed for infantry archers.
• Han Crossbow buff: +1 pierce damage and +0.4 move speed (9.6 was very close to melee move speed)
• Ram armor rebalance: 50 pierce armor -> 30, 6 hack -> 7.
• Sparta adjustments:
  • slightly longer train time for neodamodes (reduce spam)
  • Champion train time penalty removed
  • Syssition cost 200s, 200m -> 150s, 150
  • Champions in p1 hopefully more viable
  • Champ move speed tech in p1 and cheaper.
• Macedonians arsenal available in p2, bolts available p2. (in a27)
• Romans update (in a27)
  • fertility festival is not needed to train women from houses (civ bonus)
  • unique tech: roman roads, global 5% movement speed buff.
  • unique tech: marian reforms:
    • Converts citizen soldiers to legionary infantry, which are rank 3
    • legionaries and lanciarius may be trained from production buildings with an cost profile of 50 food 50 wood, 15 metal.
    • Centurions may be trained from the fortress
    • Onager unlocked from the arsenal (Area of effect siege)
• I will add the athenian differentiation soon: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3727

Edited August 31 by real_tabasco_sauce