Introducing the Official community mod for Alpha 26

[LetswaveaBook]

52 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Personally I think it would be a shame to oppose the Athens team bonus due to its historical justification

If so, we fundamentally disagree on this.

I think we should look on what set Athens apart as a faction and then represent that with a fitting bonus, instead of cherry picking.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

what do you mean cherry picking?

how is Athen's bonus not fitting? It is Justified and historically plausible. Honestly, it is no less fitting as a team bonus than its successor (which was ships -10% train time, unsure how this would effect other civs IRL).

Do I have to mathematically calculate a percentage from the effect(s) democracy had on athenian research efforts? Such efforts of historical simulation are really kind of silly when my skirmishers can walk in 1 minute from the British isles to China.

if you dislike that it is the term "democracy" then why oppose the team bonus merge request as a whole? instead, just suggest calling it "Socratic scholarship" or something.

Sorry if I seem offended, but it makes just no sense to dislike the whole patch on a single (personal) historical concern.

Edited October 26, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

2 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

If so, we fundamentally disagree on this.

I think we should look on what set Athens apart as a faction and then represent that with a fitting bonus, instead of cherry picking.

I think democracy did set Athens apart. Furthermore, making democracy affect the Civic Center in some way makes a lot of sense. Though, I don't think it makes sense as a team bonus unless you call it something like "Exporting Democracy," which the Athenians did do throughout their empire, but then again I'd rather democracy be just a civ bonus. A team bonus has to be naval-based. Their empire was a maritime empire after all. I know that makes them less desirable as a team mate on a land map.  It's hard to justify anything else without a bit of stretching, so you have to allow for that.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Team bonus naval Civs AoE 2.

Vikings: Docks are 15% cheaper.

Koreans: Mangonel line minimum range reduced to 1.

Japanese: Galleys have a +50% longer Line of Sight.

Malay: Docks have double Line of Sight.

Sicilians: Transport Ships have +5 Line of Sight and cost -50%.

Portuguese: The Line of Sight is shared with the team from the beginning of the game.

Dravidians: Docks provide +5 population space.

water civs are not popular on land.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Lion.Kanzen

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

The real task is to make water maps or mixed maps more playable.

[Lion.Kanzen]

16 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The real task is to make water maps or mixed maps more playable.

and with the naval game make it more attractive and dynamic.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

4 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

If so, we fundamentally disagree on this.

I think we should look on what set Athens apart as a faction and then represent that with a fitting bonus, instead of cherry picking.

As far as I am aware democracy is not listed under any of the other bonuses or attributes of the civ. Democracy is the main thing that sets Athens apart from other civilizations, so I don't see why it can't be a team bonus.

[leopard]

@wraitii how to make my mod appear on mod.io api

[LetswaveaBook]

15 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I think democracy did set Athens apart.

We agree on that democracy set Athens apart, but then we need to find a fitting bonus.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

2 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

We agree on that democracy set Athens apart, but then we need to find a fitting bonus.

now I am really confused.

What is wrong with the team bonus?

[LetswaveaBook]

19 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

Personally I think it is modern bias to assume that "democracy" is something that made Athens a more advanced society. So I would favour some other suggestions.

Instead of praising that Athens reached democracy, we should focus on what they achieved (under democracy). So practical examples on how democracy benefited Athens would be welcome.

Edited October 26, 2022 by LetswaveaBook

[real_tabasco_sauce]

17 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

Instead of praising that Athens reached democracy, we should focus on what they achieved (under democracy). So practical examples on how democracy benefited Athens would be welcome.

? Nobody is praising Athenian democracy, we are only using it as a plausible justification for a team bonus. Why are you so insistent? have you looked at other team bonuses, they aren't exactly real life simulation. 

That being said, democracy allowed normal citizens to access power that would normally only be for nobility (ex. Themistocles). One could say that democratically elected leaders will generally be better suited to lead their people. In addition, ideas are readily exportable, so it's not inconceivable that athenian democracy could effect other systems of leadership. Is that good enough?

again: would you rather it was called "socratic scholarship?"

Edited October 26, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Acanthis]

For a good layman's read on Athens during this period I would point out Lords of the Sea: The Epic Story of the Athenian Navy and the Birth of Democracy by John R. Hale.

It isn't the end all be all of Athenian history for sure, but in terms of something pertinent to finding a team bonus for a game like this it would be valuable.

If a few people want me to I can review the book again and some other sources and make suggestions.

Admittedly I only have a BA in History with a focus on the Athenian navy and Alexander the Great's campaigns (with an emphasis on logistics), but if it is useful just let me know.
 

[AIEND]

14 分鐘前，real_tabasco_sauce 說：

? 沒有人在讚美雅典的民主，我們只是把它作為團隊獎金的合理理由。 你為什麼這麼堅持？ 你看過其他團隊的獎金嗎，它們並不完全是現實生活中的模擬。 

話雖如此，民主允許普通公民獲得通常只屬於貴族的權力（例如 Themistocles）。 可以說，民選領導人通常更適合領導他們的人民。 此外，思想很容易輸出，因此雅典民主會影響其他領導制度並非不可想像。 這夠好嗎？

再次：你寧願它被稱為“蘇格拉底獎學金”嗎？

Democracy in Athens only had influence over the Greek states that were also in the commune-state stage, because those states didn't even have a solid monarchy and chose between oligarchs, aristocracy and democracy, but for states that had entered the kingdom stage There will be no impact.
The Macedonian, Seleucid, and Ptolemaic kingdoms, who are also Greeks, will only regard Athens' democracy as an immature and outdated system, so it is difficult for me to imagine what team rewards can be brought by Athens' democracy.

[AIEND]

23 分钟前，real_tabasco_sauce 说：

? 没有人在赞美雅典的民主，我们只是把它作为团队奖金的合理理由。 你为什么这么坚持？ 你看过其他团队的奖金吗，它们并不完全是现实生活中的模拟。 

话虽如此，民主允许普通公民获得通常只属于贵族的权力（例如 Themistocles）。 可以说，民选领导人通常更适合领导他们的人民。 此外，思想很容易输出，因此雅典民主会影响其他领导制度并非不可想象。 这够好吗？

再次：你宁愿它被称为“苏格拉底奖学金”吗？

You have to understand that military democracy has been experienced by many clans, tribes and early countries. It was not a novelty at the time. On the contrary, the fact that Athens retains this political form shows the lag of its social development. How can a backward military democracy Are there more institutional rewards than other more advanced monarchies?

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Propose an alternative then. I went to the effort to try and find a bonus that players would find exciting and with enough historical historical plausibility that would explain its significant effect on gameplay, and all you two can do is shoot it down on it not being historically accurate enough. I can't believe the historical debate has yet again ballooned so much.

You two need to let up. It is a videogame, not a historical nonfiction.

Please propose another alternative (I already did and @AIEND and @LetswaveaBook don't seem to notice, perhaps because they are busy hating on my idea).

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Lol, I don't see the same amount of hysterical renunciation of the ptolemies, romans, iberians, or macedonian team bonuses, which have about the same degree of historical inspiration for their team bonuses.

Edited October 26, 2022 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[AIEND]

27 分钟前，real_tabasco_sauce 说：

然后提出一个替代方案 。 我努力尝试找到一个让玩家感到兴奋的奖励，并且具有足够的历史历史合理性来解释它对游戏玩法的重大影响，而你们两个所能做的就是将其击落，因为它在历史上不够准确。 我不敢相信历史辩论再次如此膨胀。

Because you didn't find out, I continued your previous conversation with others, and my thoughts have been spoken by others - I agree with the idea of WOW, the team reward in Athens should be naval, during the Peloponnesian War, The Athenian navy played an important role in the maintenance of the Delian League. It can even be said that without the navy, there is no meaning for the existence of the alliance. This is the most suitable from the perspective of reality and gameplay. I can't understand why you think that democracy is better than the navy. More suitable as a team reward.
Democracy did make Athens different from other countries, but that difference never meant a team advantage.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

yes but this team bonus has 0 impact on land games and basically 0 impact on water maps. The impact of the team bonus I proposed is far more impactful and interesting. Can you come up with another name for the team bonus proposed? I came up with one before, but you still think nothing of it.

The name is pretty much trivial, what matters is the impact to gameplay.

Edited October 26, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

2 minutes ago, AIEND said:

Because you didn't find out, I continued your previous conversation with others, and my thoughts have been spoken by others - I agree with the idea of WOW, the team reward in Athens should be naval, during the Peloponnesian War, The Athenian navy played an important role in the maintenance of the Delian League. It can even be said that without the navy, there is no meaning for the existence of the alliance. This is the most suitable from the perspective of reality and gameplay. I can't understand why you think that democracy is better than the navy. More suitable as a team reward.
Democracy did make Athens different from other countries, but that difference never meant a team advantage.

The problem with a team naval-specific bonus is that in order for it to be useful it will need to be powerful (on par with iberians or gauls or ptol bonuses). If Athens has a strong naval team bonus, then on naval maps each team will need one Athens player, which will negate the effect of the bonus (if everyone always has it).

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I think

Civ Bonus 1:

Democracy

• Civic Center -10% training time and -20% research time for each passing phase.

Civ Bonus 2:

Silver Mines of Laureion

• Miners +20% metal mining rate for each passing phase.
• Note: This can function as a soft team bonus, since the Athenian player will have excess metal they can tribute to allies.

Team Bonus:

Delian League

• Allied Docks and Warships -20% build time and cost.

 

If you look at other games, team bonuses are super targeted and aren't meant as game-changers. Just nice to have.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

7 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

The problem with a team naval-specific bonus is that in order for it to be useful it will need to be powerful (on par with iberians or gauls or ptol bonuses). If Athens has a strong naval team bonus, then on naval maps each team will need one Athens player, which will negate the effect of the bonus (if everyone always has it).

I don't agree that any team bonus should be very powerful. They should just be sweeteners. The combination of team bonuses, civ bonuses, and rosters, playstyles, etc. should make civs play well together.

Edited October 26, 2022 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[AIEND]

6 分钟前，wowgetoffyourcellphone 说：

我不同意任何团队奖金都应该非常强大。 它们应该只是甜味剂。 团队奖金、文明奖金以及名册、游戏风格等的组合应该让文明一起玩得很好。

Yes, I think the team reward itself is not as important as civilization rewards and civilization-specific buildings and technologies. Players prefer a faction because of the faction's unique gameplay, not its influence on teammates - if only to cooperate with teammates And choose a faction, then the player becomes a tool person.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

16 minutes ago, AIEND said:

if only to cooperate with teammates And choose a faction, then the player becomes a tool person.

This is a great exaggeration and does not reflect how civs are chosen in real life team games. There are team bonuses that are more powerful than others, but very frequently players pick a civ such as Persians despite their lack of a team bonus.

There is also more civ diversification when different combinations of civs can lead to alternative playstyles, because of interaction between civ specific bonuses and team bonuses.

-15% ship construction time is not an actionable bonus since there is nothing a player can do to take better advantage of the bonus. Reduced cc upgrades cost and time is a VERY actionable bonus because a player can decide which phase to prioritize and it opens up an endless box of new playstyles.

I think team bonuses are great because they can form part of the strategy of the team game. A team game is not 4 simultaneous 1v1s, and people pick their civs not just for their own interests.

@wowgetoffyourcellphone other games such as AoE2 have much less noticeable civ bonuses than team bonuses, but also its worth recognizing that there is much more gameplay depth in 1v1s than TGs in AoE2 and that this is not the case in 0ad.

Edited October 26, 2022 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[AIEND]

13 分钟前，BreakfastBurrito_007 说：

这是一个很大的夸张，并没有反映在现实生活中的团队游戏中是如何选择文明的。 有比其他人更强大的团队奖金，但玩家经常选择波斯人等文明，尽管他们缺乏团队奖金。

当文明的不同组合可以导致不同的游戏风格时，由于文明特定奖金和团队奖金之间的相互作用，还有更多的文明多样化。

-15% 的造船时间不是一个可操作的奖励，因为玩家无法更好地利用该奖励。 减少 cc 升级成本和时间是一项非常可行的奖励，因为玩家可以决定优先考虑哪个阶段，并且它打开了无穷无尽的新游戏风格盒子。

我认为团队奖金很棒，因为它们可以成为团队游戏策略的一部分。 团队游戏不是 4 个同时进行的 1v1，人们选择他们的文明不仅仅是为了自己的利益。

@wowgetoffyourcellphone 其他游戏（例如 AoE2）的文明奖励远没有团队奖励那么明显，但值得承认的是，1v1 中的游戏深度比 AoE2 中的 TG 高得多，而 0ad 中的情况并非如此。

Team rewards should be an unintentional advantage that comes with choosing your preferred civilization, not a primary preference. There shouldn't be a situation where if no one on a team chooses a faction, you will be at a huge disadvantage.
In fact, as the legacy that AoE2 brings to 0 AD, the team reward itself is not a new setting. AoE3 has canceled it, and now we do not need to make the team reward have an excessive effect.