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[reference] Han dynasty Chinese architecture


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14 hours ago, Nescio said:

Why would wall thickness be “an issue for certain maps”, though? And if it is, why is that a problem? Maps use actors and simulation entities, but they don't dictate them. Not all maps have to use walls, just like ships aren't used on non-water maps.

Well it's mostly that we somehow wanted standardization, and we're adding unique walls much bigger than everything else for the Hans. And while I get your point, I felt like using a wonder as an example for a wall to be be big was kind of a strawman argument.

14 hours ago, Nescio said:

No, rammed earth is not the same as mud. I posted some photographs earlier, and the wikipedia page has more images.

Sorry for the vocabulary technicality :S

I feel like that this part of the current han texture could be used for the walls.

image.png

 

But that doesn't change that I fail to see how to make the wall look nice ...

image.png

 

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The rammed earth was certainly plastered yes?

No. Plaster interferes with its ability to “breathe”. It's important to emphasize rammed earth is a fundamentally different technique than mudbrick or adobe. Rammed earth was used for thick defensive walls and for erecting platforms upon which other structures could be built.

In contrast, for ordinary Chinese structures the primary building material is wood; they had simple, non-load bearing walls that could be plastered, yes.

8 hours ago, Stan` said:

Well it's mostly that we somehow wanted standardization, and we're adding unique walls much bigger than everything else for the Hans

*Han. As you know, I like consistency, and I think all wallsets should use the same wall lenghts. (I'm therefore also in favour of slightly resizing ptol and sele walls.) However, wall thickness isn't fixed, nor is height, it varies from civ to civ in 0 A.D.. The walls of the Mauryas especially stand out, theirs are much taller, thanks to their roofs, but less than half as thick as Roman walls.

Both the Servian and the Aurelian walls of Rome were less than 4 m thick; the thickest walls of Constantinople were up to 6 m thick. In ancient China city walls of up to 40 m thick have been found, so having Chinese walls in game that are only two to three times as thick doesn't seem excessive.

8 hours ago, Stan` said:

Sorry for the vocabulary technicality :S

I feel like that this part of the current han texture could be used for the walls.

image.png

But that doesn't change that I fail to see how to make the wall look nice ...

The colour is fine, but the pattern is not. Moreover, those cracks will get repetitive.

Rammed earth was erected in horizontal layers; it would be nice if the texture could convey that.

To better show what I mean, here are some pictures of the Great Wall at the Jiayu pass in Gansu, from the Ming dynasty, mind:

Spoiler

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/JiayuguanWall.jpgFile:Jiauguan Wall.jpgFile:Jiauguan Corner Tower.jpg

[EDIT] For remains from the Han dynasty, see:

On 08/12/2020 at 10:08 PM, Nescio said:

Some ruins of Han dynasty fortications are still standing at the Yumen Pass, also called the Jade Gate, the western-most point of entry of Han China, near Dunhuang in Gansu:

  Hide contents

File:Hanmuren.JPG

File:Yumenguan.jpg

File:Jade Gate entrance from the east lo-res.jpg

File:如诗玉门关.jpg

File:Summer Vacation 2007, 263, Watchtower In The Morning Light, Dunhuang, Gansu Province.jpg

 

 

Edited by Nescio
include photographs of Han fortications
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Spoiler

9JRxLrJ.png?width=767&height=677

reconstruction of the great earthen walls around jiayuguan

visita-guiada-baC3B1os-encina.png

baños de la encina, almost the entire castle is made of taipa from the look of it

okayama-kinojo-castle-home-of-soja-s-oni17fc54bc47aea932fd9251045b6bc547-900x600

last two are a reconstruction of Ki castle, Kinojo, korean styled japanese taipa mountain fortress

materials-12-01396-g002.png?width=1150&h

first one and this one are a reconstruction of jiayuguan fortress, brick and taipa

The Keep, Alhambra, Granada, Andalucia. Constructed around the | Download  Scientific Diagram

even the Alhambra has taipa fortifications

 

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2 hours ago, LordGood said:

Oooh are we considering taipa walls?

Yes, rammed earth is known by a variety of terms, taipa is the Portuguese name, hāngtǔ the Chinese.

Paul A. Jaquin, Charles E. Augarde, Christopher M. Gerrard “Chronological Description of the Spatial Development of Rammed Earth Techniques” International Journal of Architectural Heritage 2.4 (2008) 377–400 https://doi.org/10.1080/15583050801958826

is an overview describing usage around the world. Note that there are two independent traditions, one originating in Northern China and another in the Near East; apparently the Phoenicians and Carthaginians introduced the technique to the Western Mediterranean. An important difference is that the Phoenicians already used wooden formwork, which allowed for narrower and straighter walls, whereas in China formwork was known but “a ‘true’ rammed earth technique was first developed” only after the Han dynasty.

[EDIT] Apparently @Genava55 found the same article while I was writing this.

Basically, ancient Chinese city walls belong to type 2.

Edited by Nescio
I'm too slow
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you're a godsend genava, its a pain in the ass to find examples for any of these but Ive found it fascinating

7 days to die used to let players build castles out of compacted earth but they since removed the feature, but it got me exploring these fortifications lol

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For rammed earth, less "ruined" examples would be best, as they will be depicted in game as newly constructed and finished. A lot of the examples shown so far look quite weathered.

Would the walls of, say, the imperial capital have had a rough look to them or would they have had a "finishing" of some kind? Would they still have that sandy color?

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23 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

For rammed earth, less "ruined" examples would be best, as they will be depicted in game as newly constructed and finished. A lot of the examples shown so far look quite weathered.

Would the walls of, say, the imperial capital have had a rough look to them or would they have had a "finishing" of some kind? Would they still have that sandy color?

Yes, they look weathered, those Han fortifications are over two thousand years old; the fact they survived at all is mostly thanks to the desert climate and low population density of Gansu.

As stated earlier, rammed-earth walls were (and are) typically left unfinished; their exact colour depends on the material used (the local subsoil), but yes, it tends to be a sandy shade.

The Han imperial capital was at Chang'an; no Han fortifications are still standing there, the city was razed and rebuilt a couple of times in its history; it's now part of Xi'an, the capital of Shaanxi, and one of the larger multi-million cities in China. What has survived there is a section of a Ming-dynasty city wall: 

On 08/12/2020 at 10:08 PM, Nescio said:

(note though that Ming walls were covered on the outside with bricks, which was not yet the case under the Han and earlier dynasties):

  Hide contents

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Defensive_Wall_of_Prince_Qin_Mansion_03_2016-01.jpg

Ignore the bricks, but look at the colour of the interior.

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  • 4 months later...
On 12/12/2020 at 3:58 PM, Nescio said:

It's clear the Han had a great variety of tall, free-standing towers. This is something where China differs from the Mediterranean. To reflect that, it would by nice if the Han could have (at least) three towers:

  • a two-storey tower in the village phase, costing 100 wood;
  • a three-storey tower in the town phase, costing 200 wood;
  • a four-storey tower in the city phase, costing 300 wood.

Han model of a two-storey tower:

Spoiler
Tower with archers, China, Han dynasty, 206 BC to 220 AD, glazed terracotta - Middlebury College Museum of Art - Middlebury, VT - DSC08205.jpg

 Han model of a three-storey tower:

Spoiler
Dinastia han posteriore, torre d'osservazione, henan, I-III sec. 01.JPG

 Han model of a four-storey tower:

Spoiler

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Dinastia_han_or.le%2C_torre%2C_25-220_ca..JPG

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