[reference] Han dynasty Chinese architecture

[Stan`]

14 hours ago, Nescio said:

Why would wall thickness be “an issue for certain maps”, though? And if it is, why is that a problem? Maps use actors and simulation entities, but they don't dictate them. Not all maps have to use walls, just like ships aren't used on non-water maps.

Well it's mostly that we somehow wanted standardization, and we're adding unique walls much bigger than everything else for the Hans. And while I get your point, I felt like using a wonder as an example for a wall to be be big was kind of a strawman argument.

14 hours ago, Nescio said:

No, rammed earth is not the same as mud. I posted some photographs earlier, and the wikipedia page has more images.

Sorry for the vocabulary technicality

I feel like that this part of the current han texture could be used for the walls.

 

But that doesn't change that I fail to see how to make the wall look nice ...

 

 

 

 

 

[Nescio]

8 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The rammed earth was certainly plastered yes?

No. Plaster interferes with its ability to “breathe”. It's important to emphasize rammed earth is a fundamentally different technique than mudbrick or adobe. Rammed earth was used for thick defensive walls and for erecting platforms upon which other structures could be built.

In contrast, for ordinary Chinese structures the primary building material is wood; they had simple, non-load bearing walls that could be plastered, yes.

8 hours ago, Stan` said:

Well it's mostly that we somehow wanted standardization, and we're adding unique walls much bigger than everything else for the Hans

*Han. As you know, I like consistency, and I think all wallsets should use the same wall lenghts. (I'm therefore also in favour of slightly resizing ptol and sele walls.) However, wall thickness isn't fixed, nor is height, it varies from civ to civ in 0 A.D.. The walls of the Mauryas especially stand out, theirs are much taller, thanks to their roofs, but less than half as thick as Roman walls.

Both the Servian and the Aurelian walls of Rome were less than 4 m thick; the thickest walls of Constantinople were up to 6 m thick. In ancient China city walls of up to 40 m thick have been found, so having Chinese walls in game that are only two to three times as thick doesn't seem excessive.

8 hours ago, Stan` said:

Sorry for the vocabulary technicality

I feel like that this part of the current han texture could be used for the walls.

But that doesn't change that I fail to see how to make the wall look nice ...

The colour is fine, but the pattern is not. Moreover, those cracks will get repetitive.

Rammed earth was erected in horizontal layers; it would be nice if the texture could convey that.

To better show what I mean, here are some pictures of the Great Wall at the Jiayu pass in Gansu, from the Ming dynasty, mind:

Spoiler

[EDIT] For remains from the Han dynasty, see:

On 08/12/2020 at 10:08 PM, Nescio said:

Some ruins of Han dynasty fortications are still standing at the Yumen Pass, also called the Jade Gate, the western-most point of entry of Han China, near Dunhuang in Gansu:

  Hide contents

 

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Nescio
include photographs of Han fortications

[LordGood]

Oooh are we considering taipa walls?

[LordGood]

Spoiler

reconstruction of the great earthen walls around jiayuguan

baños de la encina, almost the entire castle is made of taipa from the look of it

last two are a reconstruction of Ki castle, Kinojo, korean styled japanese taipa mountain fortress

first one and this one are a reconstruction of jiayuguan fortress, brick and taipa

even the Alhambra has taipa fortifications

 

[Genava55]

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/15583050801958826?casa_token=v7UgaXWZf2YAAAAA:9cFYWoVUu28rfGzt610ODzcNb8QJkQNjt5p4RC5NurvtbbJt8dFrYyqI2fLPsY9grudU7KfOZxwwfQ

 

Ladakh seems an interesting location for examples:

Edit:

https://www.earth-auroville.com/traditional_rammed_earth_en.php

Edited December 14, 2020 by Genava55

[Nescio]

2 hours ago, LordGood said:

Oooh are we considering taipa walls?

Yes, rammed earth is known by a variety of terms, taipa is the Portuguese name, hāngtǔ the Chinese.

Paul A. Jaquin, Charles E. Augarde, Christopher M. Gerrard “Chronological Description of the Spatial Development of Rammed Earth Techniques” International Journal of Architectural Heritage 2.4 (2008) 377–400 https://doi.org/10.1080/15583050801958826

is an overview describing usage around the world. Note that there are two independent traditions, one originating in Northern China and another in the Near East; apparently the Phoenicians and Carthaginians introduced the technique to the Western Mediterranean. An important difference is that the Phoenicians already used wooden formwork, which allowed for narrower and straighter walls, whereas in China formwork was known but “a ‘true’ rammed earth technique was first developed” only after the Han dynasty.

[EDIT] Apparently @Genava55 found the same article while I was writing this.

Basically, ancient Chinese city walls belong to type 2.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Nescio
I'm too slow

[LordGood]

you're a godsend genava, its a pain in the ass to find examples for any of these but Ive found it fascinating

7 days to die used to let players build castles out of compacted earth but they since removed the feature, but it got me exploring these fortifications lol

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

For rammed earth, less "ruined" examples would be best, as they will be depicted in game as newly constructed and finished. A lot of the examples shown so far look quite weathered.

Would the walls of, say, the imperial capital have had a rough look to them or would they have had a "finishing" of some kind? Would they still have that sandy color?

[LordGood]

Kinojo and Jiayuguan are recent reconstructions, not ruined at all

[Nescio]

23 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

For rammed earth, less "ruined" examples would be best, as they will be depicted in game as newly constructed and finished. A lot of the examples shown so far look quite weathered.

Would the walls of, say, the imperial capital have had a rough look to them or would they have had a "finishing" of some kind? Would they still have that sandy color?

Yes, they look weathered, those Han fortifications are over two thousand years old; the fact they survived at all is mostly thanks to the desert climate and low population density of Gansu.

As stated earlier, rammed-earth walls were (and are) typically left unfinished; their exact colour depends on the material used (the local subsoil), but yes, it tends to be a sandy shade.

The Han imperial capital was at Chang'an; no Han fortifications are still standing there, the city was razed and rebuilt a couple of times in its history; it's now part of Xi'an, the capital of Shaanxi, and one of the larger multi-million cities in China. What has survived there is a section of a Ming-dynasty city wall: 

On 08/12/2020 at 10:08 PM, Nescio said:

(note though that Ming walls were covered on the outside with bricks, which was not yet the case under the Han and earlier dynasties):

  Hide contents

Ignore the bricks, but look at the colour of the interior.

[Stan`]

@LordGood do you want / have time to help with the textures/models?

[Stan`]

@m7600
see this thread.

[Nescio]

On 12/12/2020 at 3:58 PM, Nescio said:

It's clear the Han had a great variety of tall, free-standing towers. This is something where China differs from the Mediterranean. To reflect that, it would by nice if the Han could have (at least) three towers:

• a two-storey tower in the village phase, costing 100 wood;
• a three-storey tower in the town phase, costing 200 wood;
• a four-storey tower in the city phase, costing 300 wood.

Han model of a two-storey tower:

Spoiler

 Han model of a three-storey tower:

Spoiler

 Han model of a four-storey tower:

Spoiler

[AIEND]

Nescio 于 2020 年 12 月 15 日凌晨 1:55 说道：

是的，它们看起来风化了，那些汉人的防御工事已经有两千多年的历史了； 他们之所以能幸存下来，主要归功于甘肃的沙漠气候和低人口密度。

如前所述，夯土墙通常（并且现在）未完成。 它们的确切颜色取决于使用的材料（当地的底土），但是是的，它往往是沙色。

汉帝都在长安； 汉人的防御工事已不复存在，这座城市在其历史上曾被夷为平地并重建过几次； 它现在是陕西省省会西安的一部分，也是中国拥有数百万人口的大城市之一。 幸存下来的是一段明代城墙： 

忽略砖块，但看看内部的颜色。

The newly completed rammed earth wall looks like this, and the surface is actually very flat.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, AIEND said:

The newly completed rammed earth wall looks like this, and the surface is actually very flat.

What do you suggest for the towers?( those that are not walls turrets.)

[AIEND]

10 小时前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

你对塔有什么建议？（那些不是墙壁炮塔的。）

The watchtowers in the Han Dynasty were not independent defensive buildings, but constituted a line and net-like warning and warning system, so there was one a few miles apart. This watchtower was solid, so there were no stairs, but rope ladders were used to go up and down. The watchtower is in a yard, protected by a wall, and there are several houses. Once the enemy is found, the soldiers will light the wolf smoke on the stone platform outside the yard. This early warning system continued until the Ming Dynasty.

[AIEND]

10 小时前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

你对塔有什么建议？（那些不是墙壁炮塔的。）

The small stone piles lined up under the big stone pile are the stone platforms used to light the wolf smoke.

[Lion.Kanzen]

27 minutes ago, AIEND said:

light the wolf smoke

What is that?

[AIEND]

2 分钟前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

那是什么？

Since the Han Dynasty, the Chinese have used wolf dung as fuel to generate smoke from bonfires as a means of conveying information. Of course, this does not really need to be reflected in the game, because it is too complicated.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 minutes ago, AIEND said:

Since the Han Dynasty, the Chinese have used wolf dung as fuel to generate smoke from bonfires as a means of conveying information. Of course, this does not really need to be reflected in the game, because it is too complicated.

maybe as technology.

[AIEND]

1 分钟前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

也许作为技术。

Used to expand the view of the tower?   I think it can be regarded as the inherent faction attribute of the Han Dynasty, and there is no need to study it.

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 minutes ago, AIEND said:

Used to expand the view of the tower?   I think it can be regarded as the inherent faction attribute of the Han Dynasty, and there is no need to study it.

another cuestion.

a good icon for an academy building? a Chinese icon can be shield or sword

[AIEND]

3 分钟前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

另一个问题。

学院大楼的好标志？ 中文图标可以是盾牌或剑

Are you talking about 太学（TaiXue） used to train scholars (儒Ru)? That should be bamboo slips.

[Lion.Kanzen]

5 minutes ago, AIEND said:

Are you talking about 太学（TaiXue） used to train scholars (儒Ru)? That should be bamboo slips.

we are training elite units in a kind of academy(martial)

[AIEND]

5 分钟前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

我们正在一种学院（军事）中培养精英部队

I see, you are talking about 羽林（YuLin）, an institution that trains orphans of the dead to become guards, then I suggest using two crossed 戟（Ji）.