===[TASK]=== Scythian Horse Archer

[wackyserious]

Can we add a scyt_champion_cavalry_archer unit template to Atlas?

I have everything ready and I am just waiting for an approval to commit this.

@LordGood @Stan` @Alexandermb

[Stan`]

Is that a DE only unit?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

4 hours ago, wackyserious said:

scyt_champion_cavalry_archer

I'd use the whole syllable myself: scyth_

3 hours ago, Stan` said:

Is that a DE only unit?

This could actually be the elite Dahae horse archer for Seleucids and Persians. 

[Nescio]

They look rather Greek to me ...

[Ultimate Aurelian]

59 minutes ago, Nescio said:

They look rather Greek to me ...

They were influenced by Greeks and used Chalcidian helmets,  they also used other more eastern helmets but those are not in game yet:

 

 

[Nescio]

2 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

They were influenced by Greeks and used Chalcidian helmets,  they also used other more eastern helmets but those are not in game yet:

Actually I didn't mean their helmets, but their body armour:

I suppose my view on Scythian armour is largely based on finds from the Issyk kurgan (a royal tomb in modern Kazakhstan):

Spoiler

The fact that the scale mail looks like a jacket corresponds with what is seen in Persian iconography, as do the trousers and pointy hat (which is probably ceremonial), e.g.

Spoiler

Behistun inscription (the last person is Skunxa the Scythian):

Tomb of Darius I (Sakā means Scythian):

I'm certainly no expert on things Scythian, though.

[Ultimate Aurelian]

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

Actually I didn't mean their helmets, but their body armour:

I suppose my view on Scythian armour is largely based on finds from the Issyk kurgan (a royal tomb in modern Kazakhstan):

Yes, scale is more appropriate than thorax; although some may have adopted it from hellenic neighbours.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Lion.Kanzen]

18 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

They were influenced by Greeks and used Chalcidian helmets,  they also used other more eastern helmets but those are not in game yet:

That is a work for Alexandermb than for Wacky I mean other topic. You can open one if you want.

 

[wackyserious]

12 hours ago, Stan` said:

Is that a DE only unit?

No, all of this textures are new ones and I want to integrate them in the game by having a steppe horse archer champion unit available in Atlas.

[wackyserious]

9 hours ago, Nescio said:

They look rather Greek to me ...

I was thinking about the Bosporan kingdoms when I came up with these designs.

[Lion.Kanzen]

18 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

I was thinking about the Bosporan kingdoms when I came up with these designs.

Yes Black Sea kingdoms like Pontus and Bosphoran Kingdom

[wackyserious]

[Ultimate Aurelian]

11 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

Perhaps the scale leggings should have lacing on the back ?

Like in medieval mail chausses.

[Stan`]

Maybe it could use @Alexandermb's greaves.

[wackyserious]

On 5/17/2020 at 11:23 AM, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Perhaps the scale leggings should have lacing on the back ?

Like in medieval mail chausses.

Several reconstructions and artist impressions show that these limb armors only protect frontal areas or sometimes the outer flanks of the limbs.

I am about to commit there textures for the Seleucid Dahae Horse Archer

[Nescio]

2 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

I am about to commit there textures for the Seleucid Dahae Horse Archer

Keep in mind the Dahae lived to the North-East of Iran (in what is now Turkmenistan), not near the Bosporan Kingdom (now the Crimea). Furthermore, the Dahae horse archers were light cavalry, i.e. no body armour or shields; scale mail is only appropiate for champion cavalry, i.e. cataphracts, and heroes. Finally, the Dahae horse archer in 0 A.D. has recently been moved from the Seleucids to the Persians (rP23553).

[wackyserious]

1 minute ago, Nescio said:

Keep in mind the Dahae lived to the North-East of Iran (in what is now Turkmenistan), not near the Bosporan Kingdom (now the Crimea). Furthermore, the Dahae horse archers were light cavalry, i.e. no body armour or shields; scale mail is only appropiate for champion cavalry, i.e. cataphracts, and heroes. Finally, the Dahae horse archer in 0 A.D. has recently been moved from the Seleucids to the Persians (rP23553).

Good thing you had responded quick, I was about to commit it.

[wackyserious]

3 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Keep in mind the Dahae lived to the North-East of Iran (in what is now Turkmenistan), not near the Bosporan Kingdom (now the Crimea). Furthermore, the Dahae horse archers were light cavalry, i.e. no body armour or shields; scale mail is only appropiate for champion cavalry, i.e. cataphracts, and heroes. Finally, the Dahae horse archer in 0 A.D. has recently been moved from the Seleucids to the Persians (rP23553).

But the Seleucid faction still have Dahae Horse Archers, right? I have assigned actor files in their simulation file.

This was what I had in mind:

Basic rank: Clothed in proper manner

Advanced rank: Light to medium armor leather armor with some limb guards

Elite rank: Heavily armored with scale, including limb guards.

[Nescio]

8 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

But the Seleucid faction still have Dahae Horse Archers, right? I have assigned actor files in their simulation file.

Yes, as mercenaries, using the same actors as the Persians. The Seleucids were basically the successors of the Achaemenids, but the Dahae were independent nomadic tribes just beyond the empire's border, and those didn't change.

[Nescio]

11 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

This was what I had in mind:

Basic rank: Clothed in proper manner

Advanced rank: Light to medium armor leather armor with some limb guards

Elite rank: Heavily armored with scale, including limb guards.

Your opening post suggested champion cavalry.

While the b/a/e Dahae horse archers (and also the other Persian cavalry actors) currently have increasing amounts of body and horse armour, I believe that's not really historically accurate; I'd prefer it if all armour was removed from the (Persian) citizen cavalry, and used only for champion cavalry; instead, b/a/e could get increasingly fancy clothes.

[wackyserious]

14 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Yes, as mercenaries, using the same actors as the Persians. The Seleucids were basically the successors of the Achaemenids, but the Dahae were independent nomadic tribes just beyond the empire's border, and those didn't change.

This thread was actually meant to add a Scythian champion horse archer to Atlas

10 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Your opening post suggested champion cavalry.

While the b/a/e Dahae horse archers (and also the other Persian cavalry actors) currently have increasing amounts of body and horse armour, I believe that's not really historically accurate; I'd prefer it if all armour was removed from the (Persian) citizen cavalry, and used only for champion cavalry; instead, b/a/e could get increasingly fancy clothes.

I will try to create actor concepts for lighter armored citizen cavalry.

[Ultimate Aurelian]

3 hours ago, wackyserious said:

Several reconstructions and artist impressions show that these limb armors only protect frontal areas or sometimes the outer flanks of the limbs.

I am about to commit there textures for the Seleucid Dahae Horse Archer

What i meant to say was not that they'd cover the back; just that the armor could have ties on the back of the leg to hold it in place.

Quote

I will try to create actor concepts for lighter armored citizen cavalry.

At most some of the Elite ones could have a helmet (I think the elite persian foot archer has a helmet).

Also some Dahae Units from EB (Screenshots are a bit old):

Edited May 18, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I can show you what I'm doing for DE, just for reference. It can certainly be improved.

[Ultimate Aurelian]

13 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I can show you what I'm doing for DE, just for reference. It can certainly be improved.

I think the transition for unarmored to fully armored is a bit jarring.

Elite foot archers could have only helmets with perhaps a small chance of armor; Horse archers would get some helmets at advanced rank and be armored at elite.

My understanding is that Steppe infantry was poorer and often levied from neighbouring peoples.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[wackyserious]