Balancing Gauls is Easy.

[StopKillingMe]

After many hours of test play, I believe that the solution for balancing Gauls is rather straight forward.  Take away the slinger unit from the Britons in Age 1, give them skirmishers in the CC just like Gauls (make them advance to Age 2 to make slingers), and reduce all skirmishers attack from 16 pierce to 14 pierce. 

 

Problem solved.  This can be patched in less than a week.  You're welcome.

[Lion.Kanzen]

modded*.  phase*. ty.

 

@borg- feedback.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen

[borg-]

I did not understand. Are you talking about gauls or britons? Title say gauls, but apparently you're talking about Britons.

[borg-]

You should be talking about the Celts in general. Well this may be a good emergency patch, but as I said earlier, it will just hide and not solve the problem, which will later have to be solved at any given moment. This patch will make the javelins a little worse even though they will still be very good compared to other melee units. Slingers will be even more used.

[StopKillingMe]

Sorry, let me clarify.

Balancing the *Celts* is relatively easy.  And for the ten billionth time, I'm not talking about doing this in a mod, I'm talking about balancing vanilla which is what most of us are playing.

Take away the slinger from Britons in Age 1, and reduce skirmishers attack from 16 to 14.  This is my solution.  Slingers will quite obviously not be used in Age 1, since with this patch you can no longer train them.  The number one problem on the ladder right now is an Age 1 Briton slinger rush.  This solves that problem.  Slightly reducing the attack of Skirmishers makes a Celt Age 1 Skirmisher rush not as effective.

Again, this is all that is needed at this point, we do not need to abandon vanilla and all starting playing a mod (of which there are several different flavors) - we do not need to tear apart the game and rework everything, we need a simple balance patch that addresses the Celts.  This can be done very quickly.

[borg-]

8 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

Sorry, let me clarify.

Balancing the *Celts* is relatively easy.  And for the ten billionth time, I'm not talking about doing this in a mod, I'm talking about balancing vanilla which is what most of us are playing.

Take away the slinger from Britons in Age 1, and reduce skirmishers attack from 16 to 14.  This is my solution.  Slingers will quite obviously not be used in Age 1, since with this patch you can no longer train them.  The number one problem on the ladder right now is an Age 1 Briton slinger rush.  This solves that problem.  Slightly reducing the attack of Skirmishers makes a Celt Age 1 Skirmisher rush not as effective.

Again, this is all that is needed at this point, we do not need to abandon vanilla and all starting playing a mod (of which there are several different flavors) - we do not need to tear apart the game and rework everything, we need a simple balance patch that addresses the Celts.  This can be done very quickly.

1- I did not say anything about mod.

2- Athens can train slingers in p1 too.

3- Slinger continue op, killing everything and destroying all buildings. Even more now, because javelins are weaker to fight them.

Like I said and I think you have not read, this can be a good emergency patch. Anyway you can make and up the patch, and expect a good reception of the moders.

 

[StopKillingMe]

I can read just fine.  Thank you.

[Lion.Kanzen]

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/SubmittingPatches

[StopKillingMe]

Once again, I will restate clearly, the only objective for balance patch 1.0 should be to address the fact that Celts are being overplayed.

 

So here we go again, yet another attempt (that no doubt you will tell me is wrong):

 

Remove slingers from Age 1 CC for Britons and Athens, all slingers now trained from barracks in Age 2

Reduce slinger attack to 8.0 pierce - .5 crush, slow attack speed to 2.0 seconds

 

Implement quickly, see how that affects ladder play, prepare for next patch.  Easy peasy.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

you starting to work in the patch?

[borg-]

9 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

Once again, I will restate clearly, the only objective for balance patch 1.0 should be to address the fact that Celts are being overplayed.

 

So here we go again, yet another attempt (that no doubt you will tell me is wrong):

 

Remove slingers from Age 1 CC for Britons and Athens, all slingers now trained from barracks in Age 2

Reduce slinger attack to 8.0 pierce - .5 crush, slow attack speed to 2.0 seconds

 

Implement quickly, see how that affects ladder play, prepare for next patch.  Easy peasy.

 

It's not a matter of wrong or right, it's just my opinion. If you have good feedback from other players/moders, then that is what matters.

The patch should be implemented after being proven effective, not for testing, for this you have the scenario editor. Do some testing, prove that the changes are good. Or make a little patch, call some elite players, and do some real gameplay testing.

 

Edited June 4, 2019 by borg-

[borg-]

18 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

Remove slingers from Age 1 CC for Britons and Athens, all slingers now trained from barracks in Age 2

Reduce slinger attack to 8.0 pierce - .5 crush, slow attack speed to 2.0 seconds

 

Let me help you here. What you propose is better than the first proposal, but see.

8 attack and 2.0 seconds = 4 attack. Is a good number compared to melee units, similar to what I have in mod. But you still have your javelins with 14 attack, basically 3x more.

And everything happens again, we'll be discussing how to balance javelins in the alpha 25.

So there's no need for me make slingers if I have javelins that are much more attack, faster, and cheaper. You should equalize these values.

 

Edited June 4, 2019 by borg-

[StopKillingMe]

Yep.  I knew it.  I know very clearly what the problem is now.

[StopKillingMe]

20 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

you starting to work in the patch?

You are a troll.  

[Lion.Kanzen]

9 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

You are a troll.  

no, I'm volunteer.

[StopKillingMe]

40 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

no, I'm volunteer.

Well congrats, I will no longer be participating on this forum anymore.  

[Rolf Dew]

I think Lion Kanzen means, that you should make a patch for phabricator, so it can be reviewed for submission into the main game. 

13 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

Well congrats, I will no longer be participating on this forum anymore.  

He isn't a troll btw, he is one of the Art contributers actually.

Personally I agree with Borg, release it as a mod first, do some tests online with pro players and see the results. Then submit it as a patch to phabricator and wait for it to be reviewed.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Rolf Dew

[ValihrAnt]

Some reasons why Celts are op;

1) Great eco bonuses. Nearly all of their buildings give extra population space in addition to having the lowest build times of all civs. This lets them save wood, time and grow their population much quicker. The Rotary Mill is very good for food income aswell.

2) No inherent weaknesses. While other civilizations lack swordsmen to counter siege weapons (Macedonians) or require specific buildings to do so (Seleucids, Ptolemies, Carthaginians, Persians), the Celts have access to sword cav in their barracks.

The Celts can easily function with only food and wood while most other civilizations are severely crippled without access to minerals (Ptolemies most severely).

They have good heroes and the good ol' rams. Caratacos, Cunobelin, Brennus and Vercingetorix are very strong heroes. And rams are a strong and capable siege weapon capable of quick and deadly attacks, which are only helped by the strong economic boost.

[coworotel]

6 hours ago, StopKillingMe said:

After many hours of test play, I believe that the solution for balancing Gauls is rather straight forward.  Take away the slinger unit from the Britons in Age 1, give them skirmishers in the CC just like Gauls (make them advance to Age 2 to make slingers), and reduce all skirmishers attack from 16 pierce to 14 pierce. 

Gauls and Britons are already so similar, doing this makes them even more similar.

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 hours ago, Rolf Dew said:

I think Lion Kanzen means, that you should make a patch for phabricator, so it can be reviewed for submission into the main game. 

He isn't a troll btw, he is one of the Art contributers actually.

Personally I agree with Borg, release it as a mod first, do some tests online with pro players and see the results. Then submit it as a patch to phabricator and wait for it to be reviewed.

yes but, Im not sure , if this guy is trying to get someone else in the forum to do the work for him. It's a supposition, that's why I ask him. He should see how we work here.

[Boudica]

7 hours ago, StopKillingMe said:

Well congrats, I will no longer be participating on this forum anymore.  

That might be the your best contribution so far. Sorry, but someone had to say this.

Barking random balance suggestions out at us without any robust reasoning isn't but belittling the work of the developers. As if everything is as easy as just fixing one value, and what is taking us so long? Then when people prove you wrong, you just come up with different, equally bad suggestion.

If you really want to help the balance get better, I'd suggest helping borg test his mod. He's more experienced with this and he's put like 1000 times more of his time to make it all click. Let's help him get the changes into the next release.

[Lion.Kanzen]

the mods are the way  "my friend @StopKillingMe "

[StopKillingMe]

3 hours ago, Boudica said:

That might be the your best contribution so far. Sorry, but someone had to say this.

Barking random balance suggestions out at us without any robust reasoning isn't but belittling the work of the developers. As if everything is as easy as just fixing one value, and what is taking us so long? Then when people prove you wrong, you just come up with different, equally bad suggestion.

If you really want to help the balance get better, I'd suggest helping borg test his mod. He's more experienced with this and he's put like 1000 times more of his time to make it all click. Let's help him get the changes into the next release.

This post is a perfect example of why I won't be participating here anymore.  Everyone knows what the issue is, the Celts need to be nerfed.  In vanilla.  But every thread now turns into how the most important thing is the borg mod.  I and others are not playing the mods, we are playing vanilla, so the solution is obvious.  But for some reason any attempt at actually addressing the issue is met with "how dare you speak to us this way", "you're not being respectful enough", etc.  I've got better things to do with my time then to try to coddle the egos of a bunch of people that clearly just need to grow up and get over themselves.

[Guest]

When the highest ranked players jointly made and tested a mod, (which is apparently going to be integrated as per discussions amongst the devs) , your best chance as someone who shows up out of knowhere is to work with whats established. Not completely opposite of that.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Guest

[Loki1950]

You are just screaming do it my way and not taking any constructive criticism that just does not work on any Open source project all development is by compromise and you appear to refuse to do that just my way or the highway and @$%! everyone else that attitude will get you nowhere on any FOSS project we are not a dictatorship but a collective of volunteers that have developed a self governance regime that you seem to not agree with fine do it your way and quit bothering us with your unseasoned/emotional rants.

Enjoy the Choice