Civ: Germans (Cimbri, Suebians, Goths)

[Obskiuras]

Posiblemente, la maravilla de los suevos, un palacio

possibly, the wonder of the suebi, a palace

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Obskiuras

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Looks like a blockhouse kinda. Basically a small fort or big tower.

[Obskiuras]

15 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Looks like a blockhouse kinda. Basically a small fort or big tower.

Any reference i can use?

[Lion.Kanzen]

@Genava55 any reference for marvels/wonders?

[Genava55]

18 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

@Genava55 any reference for marvels/wonders?

Nope. The special places of the Germans, like sanctuaries, gathering place, assemblies/senates were open-field and delimited with simple structures. 

 

One of the best preserved village is Feddersen Wierde but the biggest structure there is simply a longhaus.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

3 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Nope. The special places of the Germans, like sanctuaries, gathering place, assemblies/senates were open-field and delimited with simple structures. 

 

One of the best preserved village is Feddersen Wierde but the biggest structure there is simply a longhaus.

Perhaps the Grove of Fetters can be depicted in some way, or the aftermath of Teutoburg Forest.

[Genava55]

28 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Perhaps the Grove of Fetters can be depicted in some way, or the aftermath of Teutoburg Forest.

The Semnonenhain is a good candidate but I don't know how to depict a grove properly. Is it possible to adapt the structure with the biome? Like calling an entity dynamically for the structure.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

56 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

The Semnonenhain is a good candidate but I don't know how to depict a grove properly. Is it possible to adapt the structure with the biome? Like calling an entity dynamically for the structure.

The original idea was to integrate biomes deeper into the workings of the game. That way, things like what you propose could happen. 

On 08/11/2022 at 10:04 AM, Obskiuras said:

Any reference i can use?

I was just saying that the concept art looks like a generic blockhouse or something.  

[Lion.Kanzen]

we should have 2 alternatives then.

[Obskiuras]

On 09/11/2022 at 12:27 PM, Lion.Kanzen said:

we should have 2 alternatives then.

Then what do i do?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Obskiuras said:

Then what do i do?

A few concepts of the Grove of Fetters and maybe the Aftermath of Teutoburg Forest could help.

[Genava55]

English translation

Tacitus, Germania, 39: The Semnones give themselves out to be the most ancient and renowned branch of the Suevi. Their antiquity is strongly attested by their religion. At a stated period, all the tribes of the same race assemble by their representatives in a grove consecrated by the auguries of their forefathers, and by immemorial associations of terror. Here, having publicly slaughtered a human victim, they celebrate the horrible beginning of their barbarous rite. Reverence also in other ways is paid to the grove. No one enters it except bound with a chain, as an inferior acknowledging the might of the local divinity. If he chance to fall, it is not lawful for him to be lifted up, or to rise to his feet; he must crawl out along the ground. All this superstition implies the belief that from this spot the nation took its origin, that here dwells the supreme and all-ruling deity, to whom all else is subject and obedient. The fortunate lot of the Semnones strengthens this belief; a hundred cantons are in their occupation, and the vastness of their community makes them regard themselves as the head of the Suevic race.

Tacitus, Annals, 60: This language roused not only the Cherusci but the neighbouring tribes and drew to their side Inguiomerus, the uncle of Arminius, who had long been respected by the Romans. This increased Cæsar's alarm. That the war might not burst in all its fury on one point, he sent Cæcina through the Bructeri to the river Amisia with forty Roman cohorts to distract the enemy, while the cavalry was led by its commander Pedo by the territories of the Frisii. Germanicus himself put four legions on shipboard and conveyed them through the lakes, and the infantry, cavalry, and fleet met simultaneously at the river already mentioned. The Chauci, on promising aid, were associated with us in military fellowship. Lucius Stertinius was despatched by Germanicus with a flying column and routed the Bructeri as they were burning their possessions, and amid the carnage and plunder, found the eagle of the nineteenth legion which had been lost with Varus. The troops were then marched to the furthest frontier of the Bructeri, and all the country between the rivers Amisia and Luppia was ravaged, not far from the forest of Teutoburgium, where the remains of Varus and his legions were said to lie unburied.

Tacitus, Annals, 61: Germanicus upon this was seized with an eager longing to pay the last honour to those soldiers and their general, while the whole army present was moved to compassion by the thought of their kinsfolk and friends, and, indeed, of the calamities of wars and the lot of mankind. Having sent on Cæcina in advance to reconnoitre the obscure forest-passes, and to raise bridges and causeways over watery swamps and treacherous plains, they visited the mournful scenes, with their horrible sights and associations. Varus's first camp with its wide circumference and the measurements of its central space clearly indicated the handiwork of three legions. Further on, the partially fallen rampart and the shallow fosse suggested the inference that it was a shattered remnant of the army which had there taken up a position. In the centre of the field were the whitening bones of men, as they had fled, or stood their ground, strewn everywhere or piled in heaps. Near, lay fragments of weapons and limbs of horses, and also human heads, prominently nailed to trunks of trees. In the adjacent groves were the barbarous altars, on which they had immolated tribunes and first-rank centurions. Some survivors of the disaster who had escaped from the battle or from captivity, described how this was the spot where the officers fell, how yonder the eagles were captured, where Varus was pierced by his first wound, where too by the stroke of his own ill-starred hand he found for himself death. They pointed out too the raised ground from which Arminius had harangued his army, the number of gibbets for the captives, the pits for the living, and how in his exultation he insulted the standards and eagles.

Tacitus, Annals, 62: And so the Roman army now on the spot, six years after the disaster, in grief and anger, began to bury the bones of the three legions, not a soldier knowing whether he was interring the relics of a relative or a stranger, but looking on all as kinsfolk and of their own blood, while their wrath rose higher than ever against the foe. In raising the barrow Cæsar laid the first sod, rendering thus a most welcome honour to the dead, and sharing also in the sorrow of those present. This Tiberius did not approve, either interpreting unfavourably every act of Germanicus, or because he thought that the spectacle of the slain and unburied made the army slow to fight and more afraid of the enemy, and that a general invested with the augurate and its very ancient ceremonies ought not to have polluted himself with funeral rites.

 

Spanish translation

Tácito, Germania, 39: Los semnones dicen que son ellos los más antiguos y más nobles de los suevos, y confírmase la fe de su antigüedad con una ceremonia religiosa. En cierto tiempo del año se juntan todos los pueblos de aquella nación por sus embajadores en un bosque consagrado de sus antepasados con supersticiones y agüeros, y, matando públicamente un hombre, celebran los horribles principios de su bárbaro rito. Reverencian asimismo este bosque sagrado con otra ceremonia. Que ninguno entra en él sino atado como inferior, y mostrando y confesando en eso la potestad de Dios. Y si acaso cae, no le es lícito levantarse, y se ha de ir revolcando por el suelo. Y toda esta superstición se endereza a mostrar que allí ha tenido origen su gente; que Dios, señor de todos, habita allí, y que todas las demás cosas están sujetas y obedientes. Añade autoridad a esto la multitud de los semnones, porque habitan cien ciudades, y por su grandeza se tienen por cabeza de los suevos.

Tácito, Anales, 60: Movieron estas palabras no sólo a los queruscos, pero las naciones vecinas; con que inducido a seguir su partido Inguiomaro, tío paterno de Arminio, de antigua autoridad y crédito con los romanos, pusieron al César en mayor cuidado; y así, temiendo que no le cargase encima todo el peso de la guerra, para divertir al enemigo envió a Cecina con cuarenta cohortes romanas al río Amisia, por las tierras de los brúcteros. Pedón, prefecto del campo, llevó la gente de a caballo por los confines de Frisa; él, haciendo embarcar cuatro legiones, las pasó por el lago, conque se vinieron a recoger junto a las riberas de aquel río, la infantería, caballería y armada. Los caucios, que ofrecían ayuda a los romanos, fueron recibidos en su compañía, y los brúcteros, que quemaban sus propias tierras, rotos por Lucio Estertinio, a quien Germánico envió contra ellos con gente suelta; el cual, entre la matanza y la presa, halló el águila de la legión diez y nueve, perdida con Varo. Pasó después el ejército a las últimas partes de los brúcteros habiéndose quemado el país que cierran los ríos Amisia y Lippa, no lejos del bosque de Teutobergue, donde decían hallarse todavía sin sepultura los huesos de las legiones de Varo.

Tácito, Anales, 61: De aquí le vino deseo al César de hacer las funeralias a los capitanes y soldados muertos allí, movido a compasión todo el ejército, por la memoria de sus parientes y amigos, del caso mismo de la guerra y fortuna de los hombres. Fue enviado delante Cecina a reconocer la espesura de las selvas, hacer puentes y calzadas en los lugares pantanosos y atolladeros; marchan, pues, por aquellos lugares tristes y dolorosos, horribles a la vista y la memoria. Veíanse los primeros alojamientos de Varo, de gran circuito, y medidos los principios, mostraban ser de tres legiones; las trincheras después, medio arruinadas y el foso poco hondo, daban indicio de haberse retirado allí las reliquias del ejército. Veíanse por la campaña los huesos blanqueando, esparcidos o juntos, según habían huido o hecho rostro; pedazos de armas, huesos de caballos, cabezas de hombres ensartadas en los troncos, y en las selvas vecinas estaban los bárbaros altares sobre los cuales habían sido muertos los tribunos y los centuriones del primer orden. Algunos que se habían hallado en la rota, escapados de la refriega o prisión, decían: Aquí cayeron muertos los legados; allí tomaron los enemigos las águilas; acullá recibió Varo la primera herida, y allí, con su infelice mano, se atravesó el pecho; en qué tribunal hizo su parlamento Arminio; cuántas horcas mandó hacer para los cautivos; cuántas sepulturas; cómo y con cuánta soberbia hizo escarnio y burla de las banderas y de las águilas.

Tácito, Anales, 62: Así el romano ejército, seis años después de aquel estrago, recogió los huesos de las tres legiones, sin poder discernir si eran de los extraños o de los suyos, cubriéndolos a todos con tierra, como si fueran de amigos o parientes, y aumentando con este acto el enojo y furor contra el enemigo. Al fabricar el túmulo, puso el César el primer césped, gratísimo para con los difuntos y compañero de los presentes en el dolor. No aprobó este hecho Tiberio, o porque daba siempre malos sentidos a las acciones de Germánico, o porque pensase que el ejército, con la vista de sus compañeros muertos y sin sepultura, se haría más lento para llegar a las manos y tendría más temor al enemigo. Fuera de que a un general ornado con el oficio de augur y de las más antiguas ceremonias divinas no le estaba bien hallarse en mortuorios.

[Obskiuras]

46 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

A few concepts of the Grove of Fetters and maybe the Aftermath of Teutoburg Forest could help.

You mean this

[Obskiuras]

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Obskiuras

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I was thinking kind of a diorama of an ambush site. A U shape of earthworks and palisades with a bunch of Roman bodies and equipment piled into the cup of the U shape. And then behind it, you see sacrifices like what you depict in your image.

[Ultimate Aurelian]

Considering the importance of bodies of water for their religion; they could have a sort of  religious building that is built on shallows.

Maybe a function where you sacrifice units, metal or coin for glory.

Or just make it a bonus/tech (Something like you can gather glory at docks or docks can heal)

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 10/11/2022 at 1:07 PM, Obskiuras said:

A bunch of dead Roman soldiers (minus the blood)

 

Strewn inside this ambush site:

 

You can see the sides are up on ramparts/ridges/hills:

 

And then we could have hanged men from the 2 trees in back. The ground texture for the site can be cobbled together directly from the game's terrains textures, as you see there. 

 

All of this fits exactly within the Hanging Gardens of Babylon footprint, which is the target max footprint for a Wonder in the game.

Edited November 14, 2022 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[alre]

wild idea: maybe peoples like germans and britons should not have a wonder. a bit sad but also maybe a nice differentator: they can only push for a conquest victory while the opponent alone can chose to go for the wonder.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

25 minutes ago, alre said:

wild idea: maybe peoples like germans and britons should not have a wonder. a bit sad but also maybe a nice differentator: they can only push for a conquest victory while the opponent alone can chose to go for the wonder.

Maybe, but in DE the Wonder is used as a Phase requirement as a feature.

You could look at this wonder as being unique in that theirs is an accomplishment rather than a physical structure.

Edited November 14, 2022 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Ultimate Aurelian]

Possible specific names for wonder (Words are taken from wiktionary and EB):

Samnungozbarwaz (Semnones' grove), Feturasbarwaz (Grove of fetters), Wigasalhs/Gunþīzalhs/Hildīzalhs/Haþauzalhs (Battle-Sanctuary, there are multiple words for battle)

On 14/12/2021 at 2:49 PM, Lion.Kanzen said:

Fort Cart(?)

According to Caesar they were used by Germans in the Gallic wars:

Quote

"Then at last of necessity the Germans drew their forces out of camp, and disposed them canton by canton, at equal distances, the Harudes, Marcomanni, Tribocci, Vangiones, Nemetes, Sedusii, Suevi; and surrounded their whole army with their chariots and wagons, that no hope might be left in flight. On these they placed their women, who, with disheveled hair and in tears, entreated the soldiers, as they went forward to battle, not to deliver them into slavery to the Romans.

Quote

"Having marshalled his army in three lines, and in a short time performed a march of eight miles, he arrived at the camp of the enemy before the Germans could perceive what was going on; who being suddenly alarmed by all the circumstances, both by the speediness of our arrival and the absence of their own officers, as time was afforded neither for concerting measures nor for seizing their arms, are perplexed as to whether it would be better to lead out their forces against the enemy, or to defend their camp, or seek their safety by flight. Their consternation being made apparent by their noise and tumult, our soldiers, excited by the treachery of the preceding day, rushed into the camp: such of them as could readily get their arms, for a short time withstood our men, and gave battle among their carts and baggage wagons; but the rest of the people, [consisting] of boys and women (for they had left their country and crossed the Rhine with all their families) began to fly in all directions; in pursuit of whom Caesar sent the cavalry."

Edited November 16, 2022 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Ultimate Aurelian]

On 19/10/2022 at 4:21 AM, Genava55 said:

 y think it should be coherent with the description from Tacitus:

It is only an issue due to a lack of guidelines to represent the gain in experience. The current approach is based on Mediterranean civs in vanilla 0AD which is inappropriate for "barbarians".

For clothing maybe something like this:

Basic:Wearing only pants, loincloth or naked. 

Advanced:Barechested or naked with a cloak (From Roman art and Tacitus'descriptions it seems they often wore the cloak without the tunic)

Elite:Cloak and tunic.

Maybe the champions could have armor; but they have a chance of spawning without it.

Other ways to distinguish them from citizen units would be to give them scabbards, some kind of jewelry (The neckchains described in Germania?) and fancier clothes.

Possibly use this sort of ''flannel'' pattern.

Shields could be used as well:
 

Basic:Oval or Rectangular shield with wooden boss

Advanced:Oval, rectangular or hexagonal shield with wooden boss

Elite: Oval, rectangular or hexagonal shield; metal reinforced spina or metal boss

Champion: Rectangular or hexagonal shield; metal boss with some having reinforced rim

For javelin units you'd have:

Basic: Wicker Shield

Advanced:Small oval or Rectangular shield with wooden boss

Elite: Small oval or rectangular shield; metal reinforced spina or metal boss

The patterns on the shield could vary according to rank too

On 12/08/2019 at 3:10 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

All Suebian citizen soldiers -1 all armor (hack, pierce, crush), -10 cost (wood or metal), +10% speed.

I think this is would be a good idea for a bonus; maybe could call it ''Furor Teutonicus''.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Ultimate Aurelian]

Possible specific names for units ; i used wiktionary and some names from total war mods

Spearman:
Harjaz (Warrior or commander)
Warjaz (Defender, Citizen)
Wīgamann (Warrior, Champion)

Militia Clubman:
Slahandz (Striker, Killer)
Breutandz (Destroyer, breaker, Smasher)
Warjaz (Defender, Citizen)

Axeman:
Slahandz (Striker, Killer)
Mōdagaz (Brave, courageous)
Akwisīwaldaz (Axe-Wielder)

Javelinist:
Jungilingaz (Youth)

Slinger:
Slingwandz (Slinger)

Scout:
Sōkijandz (Seeker)

Cavalry javelinist:
Welwô (Plunderer, robber)

Cavalry Spearman
Ridanz

Champion Swordsman:
Herunautaz (Sword owner)
Gahlaibô (Messmate, comrade, companion)
Sagjaz (Retainer, Warrior)
Kuningasþegnaz (King's retainer, King's servant)
Þegnaz (retainer, servant)
Herthaganautaz (Hearth Companion)
Haliþaz (Hero)
 
Champion cavalry:
Erlaz (Noble)
Marhafrawjô (Horse Lord)

Ram:
Rammaz (Ram as in the animal; there is no evidence the word was associated with siege engines like in the classical world)
Gatabreutandz (Gate smasher)

Wolf Warrior:
Wulfaharjaz (wolf Warrior)
Wulfahadinaz (Attempted early form of Ulfheodnar)
Blōþądrinkandz (Blood drinker, from Paul the Deacon's account of the Lombard "cynocephali"
Wōdaharjaz (Frenzied warrior)

Villager:
Karilaz (Freeman)

Slave:
Þewaz

Merchant:
Wihslōndz (Trader)
Kaupô (Inkeeper, Merchant; Borrowed from Latin)

Priest:
Gudjô
Wīhōn
Haljarūnō (Witch, sorceress; could be used in case they get a priestess instead of priest)

Fishing boat:
Fiskarijasbaitaz (Fisherman's boat)

Trading boat:
Rinaskaupô (Rine Merchant)

Pig:
Swīną

Cow:
Kūz

Sheep:
Skēpą

Reconstructions of hero names:

Ariovistus:
Ariouistos (Celtic)
Harjafristaz (Germanic; means army leader)

Maroboodus:
Marobodwos (Celtic, Great raven, great war god)
Marabadwaz (Germanic, great battle)
Marabodwaz (Germanic)

Ballomar:
Ballomaros (Celtic, great limb)
Balþamerijaz*

*The last one is a Proto-Germanic name who survived as the Galician ''Baldomar'', it is a fusion of balþaz (“bold”) and mērijaz (“great; famous”). I have not seen anyone else suggest this origin for Ballomar; it is just speculation on my part.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Lopess]

On 04/11/2022 at 5:59 PM, Obskiuras said:

Trabajo de Duileoga

Work by Duileoga

I'm updating mod art on this github, at this point I believe they can replace the nordic models in Delenda Est once they're done.

 

https://github.com/0ADMods/suebian_art

[sternstaub]

On 14/11/2022 at 5:52 PM, alre said:

wild idea: maybe peoples like germans and britons should not have a wonder. a bit sad but also maybe a nice

Or maybe smaller sanctuaries which give a stacking bonus, where you have up to 5 or so? Maybe they can have an aura, where the people would fiercly defend their sanctuary? some civ already has something like this.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, sternstaub said:

Or maybe smaller sanctuaries which give a stacking bonus, where you have up to 5 or so? Maybe they can have an aura, where the people would fiercly defend their sanctuary? some civ already has something like this.

@Genava55 any ideas? You know those religions well.