Borg Expansion Pack Mod Release V 1.0.5

[Stan`]

24 minutes ago, borg- said:

I think it would be more interesting if we could train women or men of our choice. Men would have collecting statuses like citizen-soldiers, better in wood, stone, and metal, women in collecting food. This makes the player have to make some more decisions.

That's doable right now  

[StopKillingMe]

11 hours ago, borg- said:

This is funny, because you can also build all buildings with women in the vanilla. You can start building with men and only use women to build. This means that the vanilla is also wrong compared to the design document. This seems illogical to me, you can build but cant start a construction with women.

And I made that change just because several players asked me to do that. Valirhant, feld, stock etc..

Giving women the ability to initiate the build of barracks and towers would change the Meta of the game.  Due to the faster speed of training women, there would be no need to train men from the CC anymore, once women get a rax or two up, that's where everyone would train men.  This is the point I'm trying to make, by just randomly changing things, and not just small things but all kinds of things, you're creating a new version of 0ad.  If your mod got implemented into vanilla tomorrow, every player would have to completely change how we play the game.  That's 2.0 software.  It makes little sense to do that to Alpha code, much less Beta code.

[Lion.Kanzen]

8 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

Giving women the ability to initiate the build of barracks and towers would change the Meta of the game.  Due to the faster speed of training women, there would be no need to train men from the CC anymore, once women get a rax or two up, that's where everyone would train men.  This is the point I'm trying to make, by just randomly changing things, and not just small things but all kinds of things, you're creating a new version of 0ad.  If your mod got implemented into vanilla tomorrow, every player would have to completely change how we play the game.  That's 2.0 software.  It makes little sense to do that to Alpha code, much less Beta code.

you aren't a dev.

with a single man you can build all military buildings using females.

Quote

you're creating a new version of 0ad.  I

still same at this point. and is bad gameplay as @DarcReaver said.

Quote

That's 2.0 software.  It makes little sense to do that to Alpha code, much less Beta code.

... are you real?

WFG isn't Bethesta. the gameplay is priority. gameplay is fixed in alpha and beta, not when launching the game. or a year later as microsoft.

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen

[borg-]

15 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

Giving women the ability to initiate the build of barracks and towers would change the Meta of the game.  Due to the faster speed of training women, there would be no need to train men from the CC anymore, once women get a rax or two up, that's where everyone would train men.  This is the point I'm trying to make, by just randomly changing things, and not just small things but all kinds of things, you're creating a new version of 0ad.  If your mod got implemented into vanilla tomorrow, every player would have to completely change how we play the game.  That's 2.0 software.  It makes little sense to do that to Alpha code, much less Beta code.

Sorry but that does not make any sense.

What changes that vanilla? I can spam women and build all with them.

In mod you cant train soldiers on cc...

Edited June 6, 2019 by borg-

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

Due to the faster speed of training women, there would be no need to train men from the CC anymore

You have clearly never been rushed with 20 cavalry at minute 5.

[StopKillingMe]

4 minutes ago, borg- said:

Sorry but that does not make any sense.

In mod you cant train soldiers on cc...

Yes it does make sense.

Right now women citizens cannot initiate a build of a barracks or towers or walls.  Allowing them to do this would completely changes the Meta of the game.  Women train faster than men, so why would I train men from the CC when I can just use a woman to build a barracks, train men there and keep making women in the CC?  If women can build towers, walls, and rax, what need is there to create men from the CC?  None.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Just now, StopKillingMe said:

faster than men, so why would I train men from the CC when I can just use a woman to build a barracks

because early rush.... women  are weaker (in the game).

 

[borg-]

3 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

Yes it does make sense.

Right now women citizens cannot initiate a build of a barracks or towers or walls.  Allowing them to do this would completely changes the Meta of the game.  Women train faster than men, so why would I train men from the CC when I can just use a woman to build a barracks, train men there and keep making women in the CC?  If women can build towers, walls, and rax, what need is there to create men from the CC?  None.

Did you forget that you only need one man for this? And you start game with 4 units? Stop talking nonsense.

And if you only make women, any low level player would defeat you. pls...

Women "cant fight", less gathering res, poor health, etc..

Edited June 6, 2019 by borg-

[StopKillingMe]

6 minutes ago, (-_-) said:

You have clearly never been rushed with 20 cavalry at minute 5.

Don't make me laugh, 20 cav at minute 5 would be a massive sacrifice of economy.

[Guest]

Why do you think that has been the meta for years?

I climbed to 85 (I think) on the leaderboard primarily doing that.

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by Guest

[borg-]

1 minute ago, StopKillingMe said:

Don't make me laugh, 20 cav at minute 5 would be a massive sacrifice of economy.

I can do this, as many others do, you clearly have no notion of game.

[StopKillingMe]

2 minutes ago, borg- said:

Did you forget that you only need one man for this? And you start game with 4 units? Stop talking nonsense.

You just aren't getting it.  This is why we can't have your mod rolled up into vanilla.  Allowing women to build all structures will have a massive impact on how the game plays and the Meta of the starting build order.  Once again, there will be no need to train men from the CC, the Meta will change to women getting a rax up as soon as possible, with the four starting men staying on wood for the collection bonus.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, borg- said:

I can do this, as many others do, you clearly have no notion of game.

lol.

 

5 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

Don't make me laugh, 20 cav at minute 5 would be a massive sacrifice of economy.

you can hunt with cavalry, even more faster.

[Guest]

How is this change any different from vanilla?

All “pros” micro fast enough to lay the foundation using a woodcutter and task him back to the trees while selecting 5 women from the nearby farm to build the thing.

[StopKillingMe]

4 minutes ago, borg- said:

I can do this, as many others do, you clearly have no notion of game.

Your constant attempt at belittling me are not going to work.  All it does is reveal who incredibly immature you are as an individual.

[Lion.Kanzen]

7 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

This is why we can't have your mod rolled up into vanilla

we, don't include me. you are alone here.

7 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

there will be no need to train men from the CC

yeah... how you planned defend yourself. men gets more bonus....etc. 

3 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

Your constant attempt at belittling me are not going to work.  All it does is reveal who incredibly immature you are as an individual.

isn't necessary, is auto mode.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen

[borg-]

6 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

Your constant attempt at belittling me are not going to work.  All it does is reveal who incredibly immature you are as an individual.

I am not lowering you, I am putting facts. You tell me that 20 horses in 5 minutes is impossible, and a is the main strategy used in 1vs1.

You tell me that this changes the current meta, that you can do exactly the same in the vanilla.

I can tear down your bored theory with only 5 minutes of play.

Patience has limits. You just do not want to understand and there's something against me that I do not know why. Anyway this topic is to talk about the mod, if you want to continue with your "pros skills balance", make another topic about it.

Edited June 6, 2019 by borg-

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, borg- said:

I am not lowering you, I am putting facts. You tell me that 20 horses in 5 minutes is impossible, and a is the main strategy used in 1vs1.

You tell me that this changes the current meta, that you can do exactly the same in the vanilla.

Patience has limits. You just do not want to understand and there's something against me that I do not know why. Anyway this topic is to talk about the mod, if you want to continue with you "pros skills balance" yours, make another topic about it.

we can ask some moderation next personal attack. this have any argument or sense. we can get a consensus about this guy.

[StopKillingMe]

5 minutes ago, (-_-) said:

How is this change any different from vanilla?

All “pros” micro fast enough to lay the foundation using a woodcutter and task him back to the trees while selecting 5 women from the nearby farm to build the thing.

Umm no, not everyone is doing that.  I have a recorded game of borg's startup and he is definitely not doing that.

[StopKillingMe]

30 minutes ago, borg- said:

I am not lowering you, I am putting facts. You tell me that 20 horses in 5 minutes is impossible, and a is the main strategy used in 1vs1.

You tell me that this changes the current meta, that you can do exactly the same in the vanilla.

I can tear down your bored theory with only 5 minutes of play.

Patience has limits. You just do not want to understand and there's something against me that I do not know why. Anyway this topic is to talk about the mod, if you want to continue with your "pros skills balance", make another topic about it.

Goodbye trolls.

Edited June 6, 2019 by StopKillingMe
Have better things to do with my time.

[borg-]

4 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

Don't worry, I'm completely done.  You're a 12 year old basically.  I'm an industry veteran, I cut my teeth at Gas Powered Games working for Chris Taylor.  You can't take any kind of criticism, you take everything personally, and your go to response is to go right to belittling anyone that doesn't lick your boots.  You are a toddler.  I'm gone.

On the contrary, the mod was built with the opinion of several people, good players, bad players. The problem is you, you are the one who does not accept opinions.

You say that I attack you, but it does the same, very mature you. And thank you for leaving.

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by borg-

[Lion.Kanzen]

@feneur 

2 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

Don't worry, I'm completely done.  You're a 12 year old basically.  I'm an industry veteran, I cut my teeth at Gas Powered Games working for Chris Taylor.  You can't take any kind of criticism, you take everything personally, and your go to response is to go right to belittling anyone that doesn't lick your boots.  You are a toddler.  I'm gone.

 

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

Umm no, not everyone is doing that.  I have a recorded game of borg's startup and he is definitely not doing that.

Ok then.

At the end of the day, I get literally nothing from this discussion regardless of how it goes. I have my own vision for what 0AD should be. But I am working on finishing what was handed down to me.

But I do enjoy the games I have listed previously. And I still play them. So, to be fair, all my interests are being served.

I wish you luck in convincing the members of this forum. It might very well be their loss otherwise.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Guest

[wraitii]

I think we would all appreciate if everybody could calm down and keep on topic (borg's mod, in fact). Further off-topic discussion may be hidden or deleted and insults could lead to temporary bans.

[DarcReaver]

15 hours ago, wraitii said:

I never understood why we limited women to only some buildings when it's possible to plop them with soldiers and build them with women. No that topic specifically, I'd commit a diff right away.

Women can be spammed massively, that's why they are not allowed to build all types of buildings. To reduce the snowballing effect of multiple worker units when someone reduced build times of units in some alpha years ago.
This issue can be reduced by making gatherers more efficient but less spammy (i.e. doubling the training time) and put hard caps on gathering spots (one of many options).

8 hours ago, borg- said:

I think it would be more interesting if we could train women or men of our choice. Men would have collecting statuses like citizen-soldiers, better in wood, stone, and metal, women in collecting food. This makes the player have to make some more decisions.

You can ofc do that, still doesn't really fix the old issue that military units doubling as resource gatherers is an issue. It has down sides in controls (if you use them to attack the enemy you need to micro a lot to get them back on track again). Also as soon as your military quits to march to the enemy you immediately start loosing resources.

Just a quick math example about my point: You have 10 soldiers, each gathering 10 metal every 10 seconds.

Enemy base is 60s away and also has 10 soldiers.

If you march your soldiers over to the enemy you loose 6x10 = 60 metal just for walking over to the enemy. While your enemy mines 60 metal. This leads to a 120 metal difference between attacker and defender.

That means three things:

1) you need to make infantry/units move quick around hte battlefield to keep the resource loss low, and you need to outmicro your opponent because he potentially has more resources for defending - which gets larger for every second the enemy is not forced to fight with all his soldiers. I.e. 30 seconds of not loosing a unit means another 30 metal difference difference that can be used to make defensive units.
2) the attacker puts a lot of risk into his rush because he needs to disrupt the enemy eco while the enemy is already ahead - and this is not by choice but by design, that's why it's an issue and there are only very few games that mix military and economic units.
3) to lower the negative effect of this you can make soldier gather rates low, to reduce the amount of resources lost when launching attacks (which is why most soldiers do not gather super fast). This makes economy snow balling harder. It's like having an exponential mathematic function. Id you take following assumption: 1) each soldier gives you a 10% bonus to your resource income (fast gathering rates) and 2) each soldier only gives a 3% bonus (slower gathering rates)

10% bonus stacking means: 10x1.1 = 1.1, 10x1.1^15 = 15 additional workers mean 41 times more res/minute.
if you apply only 3% you need 10 x 1.03^48 = 48 workers instead to get 41 times more res/minute.

It's a bit abstract but I hope you  get my point. Right now these effects are not showing all the time because the individual gathering rates of all units are relatively slow, and you need a lot of workers anyways. If you switch those stats you'll get lots of issues though.

In 0ad currently each military AND economy unit gives you a low bonus, and over the course of the game you get an exponential curve at some point if you spam enough soldiers. This can't be wiped unless you rework the way the economy works though.

6 hours ago, StopKillingMe said:

Your constant attempt at belittling me are not going to work.  All it does is reveal who incredibly immature you are as an individual.

 I've met quite a lot of people here and I haven't seen anyone being as immature, stubborn with such a toxic, griefing attitude. You're just stating nonsense that does not help anybody.

Telling people that the devs should stick with  the design doc - LOL.

I've written a large essay around 1,5 years ago how the current "game" you love so much is completely the opposite of what's stated in the design doc. I won't list up all the points, but almost every gameplay mechanic present is nowhere even remotely related to the original vision. That's why I proposed the design doc should be revisited (and it currently is).

If you enjoy the alpha - well that's completely fine. Different people enjoy different things.

But expecting OTHER people who play RTS on a regular base to like it regardless is not. defending this by saying "but I have 10 other people who play the game regularely aswell kthx" is just as bad. A healthy community grows overall and if a game is good you don't have 10 guys playing but instead you have thousands. And this only happens if the game is actually good. 0 AD vanilla is mediocre at best at this point.

And stating that Borg only plays god mode and sets off above all others is just random malice. Balance and game design are tightly related and you cannot change one thing without the others. Since you're not even understanding this super basic principle you've disqualified from being taken seriously by anybody in any discussion about balancing or game design. 

I have years experience with modding, gameplay editing and different RTS games on my belt, and have lots of friends who I tried to play 0 AD with. They all abandoned it after a couple of games because they found it boring for various reasons - and most of them are into Medieval/ancient RTS game (won't start another discussion at this point though, I think everyone knows my points by now).

@Lion.Kanzen Yea buddy, if there's a more polished state I'll give my 2 cents towards the process. But until then I'll remain a bit in the shadows. Sort of busy with other stuff at the moment.

Edited June 6, 2019 by DarcReaver