===[TASK]=== Current issues with Celtic units and guideline for the next

[wackyserious]

17 minutes ago, Stan` said:

What about when looking at them from the back?

It's the guys at the back rows, why I suggested that a cape prop can do the trick, maybe, that way colorful part of design can be retained while dominant player color is still active and maybe no more helmet for these guys, plus a mix of limed hair and regular Celtic hair variants

[wackyserious]

I committed the work in progress so you guys can test it on SVN

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, wackyserious said:

I committed the work in progress so you guys can test it on SVN

They don't look bad. And as you said, the capes help them blend better.  Used sparingly, I see no reason to not keep them.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I think the Gauls should get a citizen-soldier Swordsman and make that their starting melee infantry. Would differentiate them more from the Britons, whose starting melee infantry would be the spearman. 

[wackyserious]

6 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I think the Gauls should get a citizen-soldier Swordsman and make that their starting melee infantry. Would differentiate them more from the Britons, whose starting melee infantry would be the spearman. 

I've read the thread earlier and saw the suggestion for archers too by @Nescio

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

4 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

I've read the thread earlier and saw the suggestion for archers too by @Nescio

Indeed. I think Gauls should get a cheap/trash archer that does not promote beyond Basic rank. These are the "hunters" that Vercingetorix called to arms during the Gallic War against Caesar. 

 

For Britons, I think their Champion Chariot should be available 1 phase earlier and have this feature from DE:

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Stan`]

3 hours ago, wackyserious said:

I committed the work in progress so you guys can test it on SVN

Usually it's better to make a little mod instead

[Lion.Kanzen]

7 minutes ago, Stan` said:

Usually it's better to make a little mod instead

We should have an art mod.

[Ultimate Aurelian]

Is scale armor accurate for Celts?

It is one of the current textures for the Gaul champion swordsman and champion cavalry.

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Is scale armor accurate for Celts?

It is one of the current textures for the Gaul champion swordsman and champion cavalry.

Celtic linotorax armor.

or at least one variation.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

 

 

[Ultimate Aurelian]

8 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Celtic linotorax armor.

or at least one variation.

Yes, i was  curious about the bronze part in the middle since i have not seen it in other depictions of Celtic armor.

I only know of Greek linothorax with scales.

8 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

I guess this could be   interpreted as scale, although might also be  quilting or decorative patterns.

https://www.academia.edu/6816233/SCALE_ARMOUR_IN_THE_MEDITERRANEAN_AREA_DURING_THE_EARLY_IRON_AGE_A_FROM_THE_IXTH_TO_THE_IIIRD_CENTURY_BC

Edited October 28, 2022 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Lion.Kanzen]

10 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Yes, i was  curious about the bronze part in the middle since i have not seen it in other depictions of Celtic armor.

I only know of Greek linothorax with scales.

I guess this could be   interpreted as scale, although might also be  quilting or decorative patterns.

https://www.academia.edu/6816233/SCALE_ARMOUR_IN_THE_MEDITERRANEAN_AREA_DURING_THE_EARLY_IRON_AGE_A_FROM_THE_IXTH_TO_THE_IIIRD_CENTURY_BC

It is probably inspired by the Greek models.

[Lion.Kanzen]

@wackyserious

[Genava55]

On 28/10/2022 at 3:48 AM, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Is scale armor accurate for Celts?

It is one of the current textures for the Gaul champion swordsman and champion cavalry.

Metallic scales never have been found in a Celtic context. Currently there is no direct remain certifying the presence of organic body protection during the Celtic Iron Age. Although there are native depictions of them during the 5th and 4th century BC, and probably during the 2nd century BC. 

https://ibb.co/album/TcHGK0

There are also a few quotes suggesting some knowledge about organic body protection:

Pliny the Elder, Natural History, 8, 73: The Gauls embroider them in a different manner from that which is practiced by the Parthians. Wool is compressed also for making a felt, which, if soaked in vinegar, is capable of resisting even iron; and, what is still more, after having gone through the last process, wool will even resist fire; the refuse, too, when taken out of the vat of the scourer, is used for making mattresses, an invention, I fancy, of the Gauls. At all events, it is by Gallic names that we distinguish the different sort of mattresses at the present day[...]

Polybius, Histories, 2, 30, 1: But when the javelineers advanced, as is their usage, from the ranks of the Roman legions and began to hurl their javelins in well-aimed volleys, the Celts in the rear ranks indeed were well protected by their trousers and cloaks[…]

Plutarch, Life of Marcellus, 7: Meanwhile the king of the Gauls espied him, and judging from his insignia that he was the commander, rode far out in front of the rest and confronted him, shouting challenges and brandishing his spear. His stature exceeded that of the other Gauls, and he was conspicuous for a suit of armour which was set off with gold and silver and bright colours and all sorts of broideries; it gleamed like lightning. Accordingly, as Marcellus surveyed the ranks of the enemy, this seemed to him to be the most beautiful armour, and he concluded that it was this which he had vowed to the god. He therefore rushed upon the man, and by a thrust of his spear which pierced his adversary's breastplate, and by the impact of his horse in full career, threw him, still living, upon the ground, where, with a second and third blow, he promptly killed him.

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Genava55

[Genava55]

Current models in game, released alpha 26.

Spoiler

Gallic Basic Javelineer

Gallic advanced javelineer

Gallic elite javelineer

Gallic basic slinger

Gallic advanced slinger

Gallic elite slinger

Gallic basic spearman

Gallic advanced spearman

Gallic elite spearman

Gallic basic cavalry swordsman

Gallic advanced cavalry swordsman

Gallic elite cavalry swordsman

Gallic basic cavalry javelineer

Gallic advanced cavalry javelineer

Gallic elite cavalry javelineer

Britonnic basic javelineer

Britonnic advanced javelineer

Britonnic elite javelineer

Britonnic basic slinger

Britonnic advanced slinger

Britonnic elite slinger

Britonnic basic spearman

Britonnic advanced spearman

Britonnic elite spearman

Britonnic basic cavalry swordsman

Britonnic advanced cavalry swordsman

Britonnic elite cavalry swordsman

Britonnic basic cavalry javelineer

Britonnic advanced cavalry javelineer

Britonnic elite cavalry javelineer

I will give some simple suggestion to enhance the recognition of the units.

1. The basic slinger, both for the Gauls and the Britons, should have a tunic because it is impossible to see the player color currently.
2. The idea to have units becoming entirely naked with increasing experience is confusing for the players. It is problematic for the Gallic elite slinge, the Britonnic elite slinger, the Britonnic elite javelineer and the Britonnic elite cavalry javelineer.
3. The design of the units should be simple and pure. Too much details and colors on low resolution texture is simply unreadable and unpleasant. Some torso are too complex and it is difficult to figure out what is what.
4. There should be coherent guidelines for visual changes related to experience, at least within a faction (not necessarily across factions).
   1. Let's make something simple for both factions: Elite = helmets. Even for slingers. At least it is visually catchy.
   2. For Gauls, I suggest to have cloak for all advanced version.
   3. For Gauls, the cavalry javelineer should have the same shields than the infantry javelineers.
   4. For Britons, I suggest a tattooed torso for the advanced versions, alongside pants.
   5. For Britons, the elite version of close-combat units should have a chain mail and the elite version of ranged units should have cloak + tattooed torso. All this in addition to the helmets.
   6. For Britons, the basic spearman should use the same shield shapes than the advanced spearman.

 

Side notes:

Why is there so much diversity in "bronze" for Celtic factions and not the others?

I find that it weighs down the visual to have so many different shades of bronze within the same faction. The dark bronze shade is also quite ugly.

Finally, the Gallic elite spearman has been forgotten for the scabbard placement change:

Edited November 1, 2022 by Genava55

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

6 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

In SVN they have tunics.

[Carltonus]

6 hours ago, Genava55 said:

The idea to have units becoming entirely naked with increasing experience is confusing for the players. It is problematic for the Gallic elite slinger, the Britonnic elite slinger, the Britonnic elite javelineer and the Britonnic elite cavalry javelineer.

Whose idea was to add these "naked fanatics" actor to these citizen soldiers back then, by any chance? My suggestion used to be a 1/10 (or less like 1/13) chance of being a naked fanatic for elite/champion infantry melee for consistency. Or maybe the illustrations were a bit exaggerated, I suppose...

 

[Genava55]

5 hours ago, Carltonus said:

Whose idea was to add these "naked fanatics" actor to these citizen soldiers back then, by any chance? My suggestion used to be a 1/10 (or less like 1/13) chance of being a naked fanatic for elite/champion infantry melee for consistency. Or maybe the illustrations were a bit exaggerated, I suppose...

 

I think the implementation was made by @wackyserious but I am not sure. I understand the idea but I think it is more confusing than helpful by bringing diversity. Your idea is a bit better but it would require a bit of coding. 

The fanatic is also exclusive to the Gauls, so it is also important to not make the two factions more confusing. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

The elite = painted and naked was from the beginning, 2005 ish, right @Wijitmaker?

[Lion.Kanzen]

the first helmet looks so good, it is less saturated than the others.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Lion.Kanzen

[Ultimate Aurelian]

 

On 01/11/2022 at 3:44 PM, Genava55 said:

 

Is it accurate to have a  bronze version of this helmet?

I think they were a later type and all finds are made of iron, but i might be wrong

[Genava55]

23 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

 

Is it accurate to have a  bronze version of this helmet?

I think they were a later type and all finds are made of iron, but i might be wrong

Indeed, those on the right belong to a type only known to be made of iron. Those on the left, currently in iron, existed in iron and in an assembly of iron and bronze (Novo Mesto).

Anyway it is not the biggest issue, but I should have mentioned it as a minor point as well.

Thanks a lot.

[Genava55]

On 28/10/2022 at 3:48 AM, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Is scale armor accurate for Celts?

It is one of the current textures for the Gaul champion swordsman and champion cavalry.

By the way, maybe the use of metallic scales is not proven but this armor could be used for a hero like Brennus or Viridomarus. This is plausible that a Celt in Italy could have such.

[Ultimate Aurelian]

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

By the way, maybe the use of metallic scales is not proven but this armor could be used for a hero like Brennus or Viridomarus. This is plausible that a Celt in Italy could have such.

Not really evidence but i read the Mars of Todi  was dedicated by someone with a Celtic name (Ahal Trutitis); although not sure if it's supposed to be scale (It is also interpeted as lamellar or even cloth armor)

Plutarch's description for Viridomarus' armor seems to be some sort of composite armor indeed. 

Possibly a variation of Celtic organic armors, but with a metal element covered in silver and gold (Either Scales or a Itallic Cardiophylax). 

Maybe even a decorated chainmail; but the description of colours and broideries fits more with cloth i think.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Ultimate Aurelian