===[TASK]=== Current issues with Celtic units and guideline for the next

[Genava55]

  On 01/12/2021 at 8:55 AM, Carltonus said:

The Gallic heroes are still a bit fantasy [and the] temple is still not really accurate.

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Boudicca has a bronze girl-chested armor which is both fantasy and inaccurate:

Caratacos has the weird belt from its concept art, which is conan the barbarian -like stuff:

http://images.gamedev.net/columns/spotlight/0AD/big02.jpg

http://images.gamedev.net/columns/spotlight/0AD/big02.jpg

Cunobelin is less problematic but he has weird leather straps (purely decorative) over the body and with buckles (belt buckles are actually something the Romans popularized, the Celts used belt hooks and rings), there is also a Roman fibula on the shoulder (the penannular fibula appeared during the Roman empire) and the wooden scabbard that should be in metal and on the other side:

Vercingetorix still has a round shield (which isn't accurate), the scabbard on the wrong side and a weird belt:

Viridomarus uses the Battersea shield (which has been found in UK), a bronze fantasy cuirass, a weird animal pelt and the same problematic wooden scabbard:

Finally the temple... isn't really looking like a temple:

Honestly, you could use it for anything else and you wouldn't see the issue. There is nothing telling you it is a temple or any building with a religious function. This could be a storehouse, barracks, a noble house, a military camp etc.

The building isn't bad, except for the round shields, but it is super generic and unspecific.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Genava55
http is not supported for old 0AD concept art

[Genava55]

  On 01/12/2021 at 8:55 AM, Carltonus said:

The Britons still await a complete overhaul.

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See:

 

 

[hyperion]

  On 01/12/2021 at 6:50 PM, Genava55 said:

There is nothing telling you it is a temple or any building with a religious function. This could be a storehouse, barracks, a noble house, a military camp etc.

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If you hadn't said anything I could still happily think of it as a temple, now I'll be irritated whenever I see it

[wackyserious]

@Genava55 How about this one?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I'd give her the Battersea shield, IMHO. Definitely one of the Briton heroes.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

  On 01/12/2021 at 6:50 PM, Genava55 said:

The building isn't bad, except for the round shields, but it is super generic and unspecific.

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Right, but what kind of religious props could it have*? 

 

*That would be "obvious" to players.

Edited December 2, 2021 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Stan`]

It could look like this basically. (Didn't make it @Sundiata did. I wonder if the fortifications are mandatory.

 

For the new unit texture, now that you're back @wackyserious maybe you could help?

EDIT: Scabbards are easy to fix. Just XML work.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

^{Maybe something like this?} 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

[Carltonus]

Thought the Battersea shield was made around or before the time of Julius Caesar's invasion of Britain? Isn't that used as a votive offering?

[SDM]

I want to chime in and say that I like the new look of Boudica a lot when compared side-by-side with boob-armor version.

[Genava55]

  On 02/12/2021 at 3:30 AM, wackyserious said:

@Genava55 How about this one?

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Much better. The fibula with the lambda is a bit odd but that's a minor issue and a great improvement

 

  On 02/12/2021 at 8:07 AM, Stan` said:

I wonder if the fortifications are mandatory.

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The ditches are unnecessary. In fact, most sanctuaries simply follow the concept of an enclosed perimeter, many have ditches but not all have it.

  On 02/12/2021 at 7:30 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Right, but what kind of religious props could it have*? 

 

*That would be "obvious" to players.

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Well, there are some examples there:

Wooden statues and other wooden figures, weapon trophies, small shrines... I am pretty sure that something like Roseldorf's experiment would be obvious to the players:

  

  On 11/03/2021 at 6:37 PM, Genava55 said:

I added in a post above a translation of a German article about a semi-academic reconstruction of a sanctuary in Austria with the addition of elements from other sanctuaries.

The original article with the references and the bibliography (I scrapped them for readability):

https://www.academia.edu/2262344/Roseldorf_rekonstruiert_Ein_keltisches_Heiligtum_entsteht_in_Asparn_Zaya

You can find a critical review in English of their work:

https://exarc.net/issue-2012-1/aoam/roseldorf-rekonstruiert

Some pictures to give you some motivation to read it:

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  On 02/12/2021 at 8:34 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

^{Maybe something like this?} 

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A chainmail would be more accurate or even unarmored but with beautiful clothes.

  On 02/12/2021 at 12:22 PM, Carltonus said:

Thought the Battersea shield was made around or before the time of Julius Caesar's invasion of Britain? Isn't that used as a votive offering?

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The site of La Tène with its dozen of swords, shields etc. is also a votive offering.

Votive doesn't mean non-functional. The old school interpretation of nonfunctional and ceremonial weapons isn't favored anymore. First of all because we are finding more and more decorated items with visible marks of use.

https://news.artnet.com/art-world/celtic-shield-warrior-grave-1725090

[Stan`]

  On 02/12/2021 at 4:42 PM, Genava55 said:

The ditches are unnecessary. In fact, most sanctuaries simply follow the concept of an enclosed perimeter, many have ditches but not all have it.

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But it still has to be enclosed by wooden walls doesn't it?

[Genava55]

  On 02/12/2021 at 5:25 PM, Stan` said:

But it still has to be enclosed by wooden walls doesn't it?

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I would say yes, this is THE feature of those sanctuaries, there are walls separating it to the outside world. And those walls weren't in stones. It can be wooden planks or clayed wattle and daub walls. 

[Stan`]

  On 02/12/2021 at 5:35 PM, Genava55 said:

clayed wattle and daub walls.

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This might look better than just wooden planks, for it will offer a bit more variation. I suppose the temple will just be a smaller version of the wonder though.

[wackyserious]

  On 02/12/2021 at 3:30 AM, wackyserious said:

@Genava55 How about this one?

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Armored variant?

[Carltonus]

My initial suggestion was that the Battersea shield be a prop addition to the Brythonic temple or other structure. But since you insist in a combat use, let it be equipped to a proposed hero before or during the time of Julius Caesar's invasion, if any.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Carltonus

[wackyserious]

@Genava55 Would this work for Cunobelin?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

  On 02/12/2021 at 4:42 PM, Genava55 said:

beautiful clothes

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Not helpful.

 

  On 02/12/2021 at 8:07 AM, Stan` said:

It could look like this basically. (Didn't make it @Sundiata did. I wonder if the fortifications are mandatory.

 

For the new unit texture, now that you're back @wackyserious maybe you could help?

EDIT: Scabbards are easy to fix. Just XML work.

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I like this a lot. The existing temple could be some kind of capturable map object.

[Genava55]

  On 02/12/2021 at 7:37 PM, Carltonus said:

My initial suggestion was that the Battersea shield be a prop addition to the Brythonic temple or other structure.

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It could be too. I interpreted your message as saying this is a ceremonial item. But as a prop it is also plausible.

  On 03/12/2021 at 8:13 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Not helpful.

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The idea of beautiful clothes?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

  On 03/12/2021 at 5:07 PM, Genava55 said:

The idea of beautiful clothes?

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No, I meant "beautiful clothes" with no visual references for what you mean doesn't help.  

[wackyserious]

@Genava55

Concept for Caratacos

The problem is that it looks too identical to the current appearance of Brennus

[wackyserious]

Another one

[wackyserious]

V I R I D O M A R U S

[Genava55]

  On 04/12/2021 at 3:33 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

No, I meant "beautiful clothes" with no visual references for what you mean doesn't help.

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http://vandervaart-verschoof.com/coloring-the-iron-age-oldest-dress-in-the-netherlands-was-bright-red-and-blue/

And about the adornment, bear tusks pendant are plausible for Britain:

Glass beads too:

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

  On 04/12/2021 at 12:22 PM, wackyserious said:

V I R I D O M A R U S

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Looks great. Should probably pick 1 shield pattern each for these guys though. Any suggestions for your favorites @Genava55?