Balancing

[borg-]

Hi guys!!!

The strategy used at the time is rush champs, for all players in all maps. there is no variety of strategies.

Scythewirley are trying to change some things, but I have not like some of them. (my opnion)

Scy nerfed champs now, in armour, production time and price, and i agree, although I think a bit exaggerated.

biggest problem is increase armour for structures. Normal soldiers have no chance vs structures at the time, now with these changes, they are useless.

And as the champs were nerfed, how do we do to destroy or capture structures???

I know he would change some things yet, but would like to discuss this issue. I would like to see normal soldiers can destroy buildings, this is enable the game to several new tactics and strategies.

Tnx, and sorry for my inglish. 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2016 by borg-

[Mr.Monkey]

I agree the fact that normal soldiers do absolutely no damage to buildings, I can send 70 workers destroy a fortress and get them all killed before I even get halfway.

It is not really such a bad thing in my opinion since I see the "normal soldiers" as workers rather than infantry, and I see champs as my main attacking force, the only times i use normal soldiers for a battle are when I use archers or slingers to do some damage behind my champions to give me a slight edge over the enemy when I think the fight is going to be close.

Other than that I only use them for gathering resources or building structures. Not such a bad thing in my opinion, but then again normal soldiers being able to destroy buildings would also be nice as borg pointed out.

[Palaxin]

Welcome, @borg-

I think @scythetwirler's intention is to use soldiers mainly for capturing and siege for destroying. You probably noticed that siege and elephants have been buffed, so they are a lot more effective against buildings now. I agree that the champion nerf may be exaggerated a bit. Increasing the train time was necessary, but the additional increase in cost AND the decrease in armor can easily make them less cost efficient than citizen soldiers (certainly if they are ranked up).

In my opinion it is good and realistic (swords would be blunt/useless soon if hit too often on a stone wall) to make buildings less vulnerable to soldiers, however I propose to add the possibility to burn (wooden) buildings. This way some units would be useful beyond capturing and you would have more strategic possibilities without breaking realism.

If you still want to destroy structures easily with your soldiers, just edit the armor values of some building templates in binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates. Could be a small mod  

Edited April 19, 2016 by Palaxin

[scythetwirler]

1 hour ago, Palaxin said:

I think @scythetwirler's intention is to use soldiers mainly for capturing and siege for destroying. You probably noticed that siege and elephants have been buffed, so they are a lot more effective against buildings now.

Correct.

 

1 hour ago, Palaxin said:

Increasing the train time was necessary, but the additional increase in cost AND the decrease in armor can easily make them less cost efficient than citizen soldiers (certainly if they are ranked up).

Cost efficiency is hard to determine solely by adding together all dps and armour. In the instance of capturing and melee attack, a 20-v-50 melee battle (numbers just as an example) may still be favorable for the 20 champions because the 50 will certainly not all be attacking at the same time (lack of space, especially if micro is not perfect). So the battle could very well be a 20v30 with the 30 side having basically a larger health pool.

In any case, time & testing will tell. Champions now have a bigger role (due to higher capture values) that may make them more attractive than citizen soldiers in pre-A16, where it was basically all about citizen soldier spamming.

 

2 hours ago, borg- said:

And as the champs were nerfed, how do we do to destroy or capture structures???

I know he would change some things yet, but would like to discuss this issue. I would like to see normal soldiers can destroy buildings, this is enable the game to several new tactics and strategies.

I'm thinking of scaling building armor with phases, so that buildings are weaker in village phase, and phasing gives you armour bonuses so that citizen soldiers can destroy structures somewhat easily in village phase, but not by the time the opponent reaches city phase. Any opinions on this?

[Phalanx]

2 minutes ago, scythetwirler said:

I'm thinking of scaling building armor with phases, so that buildings are weaker in village phase, and phasing gives you armour bonuses so that citizen soldiers can destroy structures somewhat easily in village phase, but not by the time the opponent reaches city phase. Any opinions on this?

Sounds smart! Will make rushing more viable.

[Phalanx]

@borg- Dont worry, balancing is kinda being put on the backburner and stirred occaisonally until the engine is done.  But we're always open to suggestions! Thanks for the input!

 

EDIT: (I keep hoping the devs create a balancing team but...  )

Edited April 19, 2016 by SeleucidKing

[sanderd17]

We had a balancing team, but it was unbalanced.

A balancing leader works better than a team for this.

[Palaxin]

9 minutes ago, sanderd17 said:

We had a balancing team, but it was unbalanced.

LOL

1 hour ago, scythetwirler said:

Cost efficiency is hard to determine solely by adding together all dps and armour. In the instance of capturing and melee attack, a 20-v-50 melee battle (numbers just as an example) may still be favorable for the 20 champions because the 50 will certainly not all be attacking at the same time (lack of space, especially if micro is not perfect). So the battle could very well be a 20v30 with the 30 side having basically a larger health pool.

In any case, time & testing will tell. Champions now have a bigger role (due to higher capture values) that may make them more attractive than citizen soldiers in pre-A16, where it was basically all about citizen soldier spamming.

Ok, that's true, but heavily depends on the situation. If the map is open and/or games do not extent quite long (to a point where you are stockpiling resources), champs will only be attractive for certain civs with special bonuses/upgrades like Britons, Spartans and Macedonians.

1 hour ago, scythetwirler said:

I'm thinking of scaling building armor with phases, so that buildings are weaker in village phase, and phasing gives you armour bonuses so that citizen soldiers can destroy structures somewhat easily in village phase, but not by the time the opponent reaches city phase. Any opinions on this?

IMO a more natural approach would be to increase building armor and/or HP with techs (e.g. improved building materials and architectural advancements) in town and city phase. Shouldn't be expensive though, so you can expect to research them soon.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Quote

IMO a more natural approach would be to increase building armor and/or HP with techs (e.g. improved building materials and architectural advancements) in town and city phase. Shouldn't be expensive though, so you can expect to research them soon.

Yeah , I though this but... In 0AD we create the finished unit stats and later it's implement in technology, 0AD have yet a differentiate tech tree by civs. 

[fatherbushido]

The good thing is that each alpha version has its own gameplay.

Balancing is an hard task (one step forward, one step backward): the balance man does it well.

Feel free to play svn games to test the recent changes.

Moreover:

• there are not only hardcore mp players but also solo players and/or casual ones.
• the game is still in alpha, we are lucky to have a playable game and the balance will change with each added feature.

Have fun !

 

[av93]

I would give you only feedback when the game is released. I won't play Alpha XX a lot, but Alpha XXI looks promising with the new features and I will try to make some thoughts on.My core idea is that all strategies should be viable (booming, rushing and turtle). Then comes the design decisions.

2 hours ago, scythetwirler said:

I'm thinking of scaling building armor with phases, so that buildings are weaker in village phase, and phasing gives you armour bonuses so that citizen soldiers can destroy structures somewhat easily in village phase, but not by the time the opponent reaches city phase. Any opinions on this?

In last alphas with the champ spam strategy, rushing with c/s was a little suicide. Don't know about the new changes that you propose how affect gameplay, but, if it's needed to make rushing more viable, it had been suggested to nerf Civic Center defensive potential and then grow with each phase.

And last, if secondary attacks get implemented this alpha (please!), it would be nice to try to balance the hybrid units. Spearman champs armour and hp, with an archer champ range, attack and rate of fire, could be very unbalanced.

[borg-]

Scythewirley, I liked this idea, is a good start. gj

[causative]

The problem with using siege and citizen-soldiers to destroy buildings is that siege is easily destroyed by melee if it's not surrounded by soldiers, but citizen-soldiers are unable to withstand defensive arrows.  Suppose that defensive arrows were nerfed so that they are only as powerful as the ranged attacks of garrisoned units, with a small bonus.  And eliminate "sentries" so that if you want your tower to shoot you actually need archers in it (not spearmen).

Here's another idea:  have siege weapons provide +20 pierce armor to infantry that are within like 10 meters of it.  Units close to the siege weapon would be effectively "garrisoned" in it, protected against arrows, but still able to fight in melee to defend it.

Welcome borg-!  Just so everyone knows - borg- may be the single best player right now.

[Mr.Monkey]

18 hours ago, causative said:

borg- may be the single best player right now.

Agreed, played against this guy before, he's mental

[av93]

I like a lot the new changes, at least in paper. We will see what kind of gameplay gives. 

@elexis In the Alpha XXI changelog, it says that r8025 adds champs in town phase: I had dig in the files and didn't find which ones, maybe the stoa champs?

Edit: only the Thracian Black Cloaks?

Edited May 9, 2016 by av93

[elexis]

11 minutes ago, av93 said:

I like a lot the new changes, at least in paper. We will see what kind of gameplay gives. 

@elexis In the Alpha XXI changelog, it says that r8025 adds champs in town phase: I had dig in the files and didn't find which ones, maybe the stoa champs?

Edit: only the Thracian Black Cloaks?

Yep, that's the only champion that was set to town phase - updated the wiki entry. (Probably assumed naked fanatics were set to age 2 too as they got more run speed and less build time as well. Maybe they should.)

[elexis]

Naked fanatics now ready to rush in age 2. Also split the wiki page into qualitative (gameplay) and quantiative (balancing) changes.

[sarcoma]

Lately I've been spamming spartan 2nd-age demi-champs (short swords) to rush enemy before age 3.

Build order: get to age 2 asap with 2 barracks preferably and healthy farming and mass produce this guys to chop wood and mine gold, no need to even phase 3, just a blacksmith to improve attack and armor. As soon as you reach 50 to a 100, send them to destroy people and buildings.

Pretty unfair against most.  Can be countered by enough slingers or seleucid horse archers.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 minutes ago, sarcoma said:

Lately I've been spamming spartan 2nd-age demi-champs (short swords) to rush enemy before age 3.

Build order: get to age 2 asap with 2 barracks preferably and healthy farming and mass produce this guys to chop wood and mine gold, no need to even phase 3, just a blacksmith to improve attack and armor. As soon as you reach 50 to a 100, send them to destroy people and buildings.

Pretty unfair against most.  Can be countered by enough slingers or seleucid horse archers.

Or archers or skirmishers.

[av93]

10 hours ago, sarcoma said:

Lately I've been spamming spartan 2nd-age demi-champs (short swords) to rush enemy before age 3.

Build order: get to age 2 asap with 2 barracks preferably and healthy farming and mass produce this guys to chop wood and mine gold, no need to even phase 3, just a blacksmith to improve attack and armor. As soon as you reach 50 to a 100, send them to destroy people and buildings.

Pretty unfair against most.  Can be countered by enough slingers or seleucid horse archers.

Probably this strategy would be nerfed with the next alpha. If I recall correctly, the planning for the game was having 25% less work rate per level, so a Elite unit like the spartan commando will be -50% worst working, but was broken until now, that was fixed. So if you focus on building a economy based on commandos, you will be a step behind another player with the same level in the economical side.

@elexis correct me about that. I think that this fix doesn't appear in the changelog.

 

EDIT: Maybe Skiritai Commando (Ekdromos Skiritai) should be renamed to Skiritai runner (Hammipos Skiritis). very short to read Sources 1, 2. Maybe not. I found the explanation that Mythos have in mind here. But this is a little Off-topic.

EDIT2: 18131 and 18165

Edited May 12, 2016 by av93

[elexis]

According to fatherbushido and sanderd17, the gathering malus was defined in previous releases (alpha17 as alpha18 had promotion disabled and the values were removed in a19 or something) and was reintroduced for this one. Either way, added it to the Wiki. Thanks for noticing and keep me up to date on things that I missed