[Gameplay] SVN Balance Feedback

[scythetwirler]

This thread is for collecting feedback on SVN balance and gameplay. I will try to update this post with the most common/prominent/verified responses.

Approved for SVN:

• none

Ideas for Discussion:

• Capturing - All opinions.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Cavalry have less Capture points "attack" because his hard to believe a cavalry unit taking a tower.

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Trireme ships have less range than a single archer, is possibly change range or when archers are garrison inside increases the maximum range?

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Elephant archer should be have more hitpoints than a average cavalry range unit?

[Karamel]

Reduce PrepareTime of skirmishers. With the same time as RepeatTime they fake-throw a javelin (even with sound) before actually throwing one, making hit'n-run pain in the @#$%.

300 or 600 could be fine, as they can prepare their javelin while running, throw it instantly and have a reload time to take an other one. Too short value will make them throw it from the back when hit'n running (throwing before turning back is completed).

Same for archers but a longer PrepareTime, 1000 seems to be fine.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Reduce PrepareTime of skirmishers. With the same time as RepeatTime they fake-throw a javelin (even with sound) before actually throwing one, making hit'n-run pain in the @#$%.

300 or 600 could be fine, as they can prepare their javelin while running, throw it instantly and have a reload time to take an other one. Too short value will make them throw it from the back when hit'n running (throwing before turning back is completed).

Same for archers but a longer PrepareTime, 1000 seems to be fine.

I changed PrepareTime in local mod to 1000 for all range units and it works good! A19 should do this. Stutter at beginning of attack is eliminated in most case.

Capturing: Just like when unit try to destroy building, when unit try to capture building they should still respond to attacks made on them. Right now they do not and is easy to exploit especially vs. AI.

Ctrl+Alt to force attack is clumsy. I think change it to only Alt. makes more sense.

I really belief that there should be policies or stances that can change behavior of all your units automatically and globally between destroy/kill and capture/convert. I propose special buttons for this either in top UI or along the sides or somthing. Of course, using Alt micro commands can override these macro global commands.

Elephant archer should be have more hitpoints than a average cavalry range unit?

I agree. Double health of regular cav unit, but obviously slower and take longer to train.

Edited June 23, 2015 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[sanderd17]

I should mention that with the new pathfinder, the infinite chase issue has returned (not directly because of the pathfinder, but because of the changed interface with the unitmotion component). It is something we should probably fix before A19, but for now, that makes the speed of units a lot less relevant, as even a very slow unit can successfully flee from fast units.

[Karamel]

The following is more about the general direction rather than a simple balance. To keep it short I'll just point the main things.

Reduce general movement speed: sometime with fastest units I get trouble clicking on them (even mine). Reducing the movement speed will contribute to get longer battle and have more time to react, which was one of the key point of alpha 18 rebalancing.

Review pikemen: add speed, damage and reduce armor to be more threatening (and useable). The long range differenciate them from spearmen when they fight in pack with a lot of them on the same target (plus initiative), but they should still be weaker individually.

I already suggested from pre alpha 18 to try to mostly stick to the counterscheme from the design documents (with softcounters) but it must be clear that it is still relevant before spending more time adjusting stats in that way (otherwise play Delenda Est). I made some changes in that direction if it interests someone.

[Zezil]

Capturing is at this state of things a very powerful tool, 20 champions can capture a cc defended by other 20 champions(with a forth nearby)

30 champions can capture a cc fully agrrisoned with men ,close to a fort fully garrisoned with men, and 30 skirmishers dealing damage to champions. Tests were done with all the men being fully upgraded and by champions I mean champion melee swordmen footmen.

Scenarios are similar to those of a17 where you'd just wait your opponent to overextend and hit ccs wih your sword cav, and a18 mauryan warriors.

Both those thing have been nerfed so I guess same will be done with capturing...

Elexis suggested increasing the bonus to capture points that garrisoned units give to the owner, so that a garrisoned building is harder to take. That wouldnt prevent matches from being ended by sneaky champs hitting an uncovered cc ,but it's an idea (10 champs walking on the borders of the map until they get to the back of the enemy cc to conquer it... i dont know if thats something we want)

Anyway in my opinion it is a too powerful tactical tool right now, as soon as one of the sides commits to an attack, the other can simply send 10 champs behind enemy lines and win the match.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Capturing units should have to respond to being attacked, like if the units were attacking the building instead of capturng it. This way defender can disrupt the capturers. Right now they cannot.

[JC (naval supremacist)]

i remember when i launch the idea of capturing buildings in the lobby (talking to elexis), the idea was more to recuperate an empty building rather than convert it while some units are still in garnsion

i dont play svn so i dont know what im really talking about.

But basically , i was thinking about something which will simply avoid wasting (non-sense to destroy an empty house in an invaded land) rather than a fully tactical operation which can lead to another spam-champ game.

Does it make sense (is it realistic) to capture a CC with 10 champions then leave it empty under your flag while 40 females are working around ? An empty CC surronded by ennemy city and workers cannot remain under your flag :/

--> Then the capturing-champions should remain in the CC to keep it.

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Capturing, local ressources and food-chrono (both discussed in another topic), are 3 components which will be related together and will define a new game-paradigm : A city will be no more a temporary dead-structure (like a dead-island in naval game where theres no more ressources on it) but something which really worth something as its capturable, but also something the player has to care about by ensuring a suffisiant production to make the city be able to build more structures and feed its inhabitants. Developp a road between CCs will be a solution to make each cities living less in autarky.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Hmm.... capturing. I think it would be good to limit capturing buildings to something more special, like you destroy all buildings like old school, but capture civic centers (and mercenary camps). Capturing civic centers becomes something special and focused.

Edited July 18, 2015 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Giotto]

I agree. After capturing a civic centre you then receive all the buildings around it. Would mean players must also look out for their civ centers instead of sending all their troops afar. At present I find I end up having 3+ civ centers completely redundant behind my main wall. The area around them is empty which is strange considering they should be the hub of your civilisation. More than a territory impact would be nice. Increased farming ability for instance.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Giotto

[wackyserious]

About battering rams, it takes long before you can capture one. Two rams were able to destroy several buildings and one of my civic centers before I managed to capture them both. I had a very plenty amount of spear infantry at my control during that match.

[bouke]

About battering rams, it takes long before you can capture one. Two rams were able to destroy several buildings and one of my civic centers before I managed to capture them both. I had a very plenty amount of spear infantry at my control during that match.

agree on that, I think rams should get less capture points but more decapture bonus when garrisson. Then rams are an easy capture if unprotected, but when protected it's a lot harder.

[wackyserious]

agree on that, I think rams should get less capture points but more decapture bonus when garrisson. Then rams are an easy capture if unprotected, but when protected it's a lot harder.

Yes, a little bit harder but not that much. Imagine, 2 rams were able to tear down a fully garrisoned Carthaginian civic center and barracks while in the process of getting captured by a large group of spearmen.

I'm also thinking that this has something to do with the ram's radius, because not all units will be able to surround and contribute to the capture threshold of the ram, only a selected few will be able to, and those behind them cannot contribute since they are not in direct contact with the object. So, when a ram is attacking and facing a building it also limits the number of units that can capture it.

I've also read that because of the new pathfinder, there was an issue where slower units were able to outrun faster units. When the AI began sending rams to my territory my first strategy was to surround and halt them with my spearmen but the rams outrunned my men and was able to wreck havoc inside my territory.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Yes, a little bit harder but not that much. Imagine, 2 rams were able to tear down a fully garrisoned Carthaginian civic center and barracks while in the process of getting captured by a large group of spearmen.

I'm also thinking that this has something to do with the ram's radius, because not all units will be able to surround and contribute to the capture threshold of the ram, only a selected few will be able to, and those behind them cannot contribute since they are not in direct contact with the object. So, when a ram is attacking and facing a building it also limits the number of units that can capture it.

I've also read that because of the new pathfinder, there was an issue where slower units were able to outrun faster units. When the AI began sending rams to my territory my first strategy was to surround and halt them with my spearmen but the rams outrunned my men and was able to wreck havoc inside my territory.

This speaks to the interface of the game, IMHO, which is not being thought out while new things added to gameplay. It is not intuitive for player to know how to switch between attack and capture (I think rams should be destroyed in most case, captured in some others). This is interface problem, team does not address. IMHO, Alt key should be use to switch between attack and capture and some way very easy to tell the player that his troops are in which mode. Capturing vs. Attacking is now a fundamental gameplay feature and greatly affects the fundamentals of the combat mechanic.

Edited July 18, 2015 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Lion.Kanzen]

I was playing today, elephant archer are not great unit, I feel they aren't useful, the hp is very low (144/basic) in other games they have low attack but high hp

[av93]

I was playing today, elephant archer are not great unit, I feel they aren't useful, the hp is very low (144/basic) in other games they have low attack but high hp

Right now, ele archers share the same stats than cavalry archers, like persian chariots. It have been stated before that furter differentation between units will be after

[auron2401]

Probably for the best to just have it all be be graphical differences and make sure the base unit structure is balanced before we change their statlines, aye.

[RoekeloosNL]

I see in SVN that almost everything is able to capture now. While i hoped it where only special units that would give another layer to the game, but now it will mostly be games based on capture. i hope im wrong but i really have the feeling the capture feature is overpowering normal gameplay.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I see in SVN that almost everything is able to capture now. While i hoped it where only special units that would give another layer to the game, but now it will mostly be games based on capture. i hope im wrong but i really have the feeling the capture feature is overpowering normal gameplay.

I am planning to make capture only for civic structure (Civic Center, House, Temple), Outposts, and Mercenary Camps. All other must be destroy. What team do for core game, I don't know.

I think Civic center should be like the cities in Rise of Nations. Once player builds a civic center it is now a permanent thing on the map that is capturable. So now there are permanent consequence to building new CCs. Something like that. Would be good for team to make a <Deleteable disable=" "/> tag (or something like this) for templates (so thing like Civic Centers and Merceanary Camps are permanent).

Edited July 31, 2015 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Lion.Kanzen]

@wowgetyour... I suggest Capture only some production buildings and military ( like CC, Fortress, Stables, Barracks, Temples, Towers) but gathering buildings aren't necessary( the only useful are the dock) , and houses( and storehouses mostly of time) are irrelevant is very bad idea capture houses instead destroy them, is very tedious, that why I'm opposed to capture as primary command and not the alternative system. Even can affect the good experience of gaming. In late game

[iNcog]

Capturing is a huge mechanic, where capturing a cc is a two for one trade.

The opponent loses a CC and you gain one. It's really huge when you do capture a CC. Compared to just losing a CC.

I'm not sure of my thoughts on it. It could swing the course of the game immensely, really.

Very interesting development. I have no strong opinions on this one. Just stopped by to say that it's great that the pathfinder is getting its well deserved fix. Great work you guys, you're all amazing.

[wackyserious]

Played singleplayer earlier, the AI who first spawns a battering ram easily crushes the other, defending AI tries to capture the ram instead of destroying it. Same with defense buildings, doesn't attack the rams, making defense buildings pretty usesless (Maybe switching the default action to "destroy" instead of "capture" is the right thing as someone mention before)

Buildings should be able to put up a little fight againts rams.

[Lion.Kanzen]

About that feature between capture and attack , we need create a pool to vote, is some, is great feature but need a redesign to work properly.

[fatherbushido]

Suggestion 1

Archers are basically 72 meters range.
Civic centers are 72 meters too.
But the side of the cc is nearest than 72 meters.

So archers can hit cc as cc can't hit archers.
It's kinda a bug.

(boring in many nomad games)

I think that one of this range must be modified.

Edited November 12, 2015 by fatherbushido